Ep #492 – Anna Kelly – Why Wealthy People Own Real Estate


Anna started by house hacking in central PA as a hedge against a failing business in 2009. Her lessons and insight are incredibly valuable – especially now as we enter into a similar economy.

  • Why “bank returns” are laughable
  • House hacking
  • The ultimate passive income
  • Becoming a student of economics
  • The Social Dilemma
  • How market cycles can affect value-add deals
  • Understanding Bridge Debt
  • Why “no heavy lifts” in this economy
  • “Nothing more powerful than real estate to create and preserve wealth”
  • The value of coaching/mentorship

To find out more about our guest:

Full Transcript Below

EP489 – Anna-Kelly – Why Wealthy People Own Real Estate

Rod:  Welcome to another edition of “How to Build Lifetime Cashflow through Real Estate Investing.” I’m Rod Khleif and I am thrilled that you’re here. And I am super excited to interview my friend today. A friend of mine that’s actually in my Multifamily Boardroom Mastermind. She’s a dynamic force for good. Her name is Anna Kelly and she has, you know, personal real estate portfolio valued over $80 million. She’s an LP, limited partner in over 2 000 doors. I know she’s, you’ve got a GP sponsorship deal. You’re doing that right now for 29 million on their apartment complex and I am so glad you’re here Anna.

Anna: Thank you so much! It is my honor and my pleasure and it’s so great to be part of the boardroom. Just brings such high value to all of us. So, I appreciate what you do.

Rod:  Absolutely. Yeah no, we love the boardroom and in fact we just got three guys that I think, I think that pushes the total assets being controlled by the group over 14 billion. So, it’s freaking exciting. I got some huge hitters that just came on. But anyway, welcome to the show. You know, I know that, you know, you’re on lots of podcasts and you speak around the country lots of, you know, and lots of real estate investing groups and motivate women. And just super, super excited to have you here. Now, I know your story is a little unique in that, when you started and starting with nothing and all that. I’d like you to, you know, give us a little rundown of how you got into this business. Maybe where you came from, et cetera.

Anna: Sure. So, stop me at any time because my story is so long. But I’ll try to condense it and let you guys ask some questions. But, essentially Rod, I started out in private banking. So, I learned all about retail investments. I mean, I went through financial advisory training. I could tell you anything about stocks, bonds, mutual funds. I was 20 years at AIG. No one ever told me about real estate. And I had a few wealthy clients that laughed when I told them the returns, we could get them at our bank which at the time in the late mid to late 90s was pretty high compared to today. And I thought, wealthy people have real estate and one day I want some. So, fast forward a few years, I had my first baby, Rod. And I was climbing up the court ladder at AIG, loved my job. But the minute I had a baby, my life changed and I wanted nothing more than to be home with my kid and have the freedom of my time to be with them. And HGTV had just started coming out with all these booklets house shows. It was back in 2003 and I decided, I need to flip houses. And if I just flip a few, I’ll replace my income and it’ll be easy I thought. So, I had a rental at that time. I tried flipping, lost money, didn’t know what I was doing and my husband said we’re never flipping again. That was just not fun. So, you know, decided to be entrepreneurs. We started my husband’s business. Sold everything in Texas, moved to PA. And we bought a commercial building Rod, for my husband to practice in that had three apartments and four garages with it.

Rod:  Where in PA? Forgive me for interrupting. Where in PA?

Anna: Right at the Hershey.

Rod: Okay. So, in the middle of the State kind of, right?

Anna: Middle of the State, mid-Central. And it was this small little town where all the businesses were on main street. They all had, you know, office or retail on the first level with businesses on top, apartments on top. And I was like, well you know, it’s better than leasing space. We’d have some tenants to help pay down the mortgage and if this business fails, we’ll at least break even on the building, and that was my thought. So, I became a landlord by necessity and then also, just being very careful and cautious with our money. I saw a four-unit apartment building for sale. And I thought, well it’s not smart to build another house, you know, starting over from nothing. I thought I was giving up my job at AIG. And we bought a four-unit and house hacked and lived in one of the units with our two babies. And it was a big sacrifice, but we just were convinced that entrepreneurship was the way that I was gonna be home with my babies.

Rod: Let me stop you right there for one moment, please. And so, you guys heard I interrupted in there in opportune time. So, you got this office building for your husband’s practice. Your business, what sort of business was it?

Anna: The Chiropractor.

Rod: Chiropractor. Okay. And then, you had three units above it that you rented out. Landlord by default and then your house hacked. You’re already successful. You’ve got a, you know, a good practice going on. You come out of AIG. That’s not a low-ticket job. And you decide to house hack. I’m so impressed by that, guys. You know, when you can minimize your expenses early on. I mean, I remember when I had I think 300 doors and I was living in a one-bedroom apartment because I had free rent. Because I was able to market with this particular apartment complex with another business that I own. Same, same. So, you know, I just want to flag that for you guys. Don’t be afraid to tighten the belt now to get what you want later. So please continue. So, your house hacked the fourth place. Unbelievable.

Anna: Absolutely. And you know, when I moved here in 2003, I was the first and only work from home employee of AIG corporation that had thousands of employees. So, it was a temporary situation. They said, we’ll give you three months to prove you can do it. So, I knew I might be losing the six-figure job and starting a new business, and most businesses fail the first couple years. So, we made that big sacrifice and lifestyle knowing that it would help us get ahead. So, fast forward another year. We started a business at the worst possible time at the height of the economy in 2007, Rod. Because at the time I didn’t understand market cycles. I didn’t know we were heading in for the Great Recession.

Rod: Very few people did. Countries didn’t. So, you know, I sure as hell didn’t. But you know, the only thing I can hang my hat on is that countries went bankrupt. Okay? And big businesses did. So, that’s my story on that right?

Anna: Yeah. So, you know, not unlike anyone else, I was sitting there working for AIG. I had worked from home for a year. Husband’s business did well the first year. And we had a massive stock market crash, real estate crash. I worked for the company that was in the news every day with huge billion-dollar bailouts. And I was told, you’re gonna lose your job, most likely. So, I thought, Oh my gosh. What am I gonna do? You know, we had just started out. I was losing a six-figure job. My 401k, Rod was slash. I lost more than three quarters of my 401k during that. And, as I was kind of in panic mode thinking how do I deal with this crisis that I don’t have control of? What can I do that I can mitigate and that I can figure out? And I knew that I had enough left in my 401k. I moved it over and I thought the one thing that’s going well is my four-unit apartment buildings. The tenants are paying and there’s a bunch of them for sale. So, I borrowed for my 401k and I bought another four-unit. Right as I was getting ready to lose my job because I thought I’ll have at least $1500 extra a month that I can live on, buy diapers, buy food for my babies. And I bought another four-unit building. And that was the smartest thing I did because it put me on that trajectory of realizing health care very quickly thereafter started to go under. My husband’s reimbursements were cut 40% by Medicare, Medicaid insurance. His business was failing. My company was on the rocks and the only thing good was my real estate. So, I knew at that moment I needed to buy more real estate, create more passive income where I never have to depend on entrepreneurship or my husband’s, you know, business or my own company. And that the thought that my company was safe, was really a myth. No company was safe. And so, that’s what really got me at that moment in 2000, early 2009 to say I’m gonna do everything I can to buy as much real estate I can to create as much passive income as I can.

Rod:  Yeah. So, you know, guys this is a do-do-do-do moment. Yeah, because I, you know, I don’t know where you think we are on the cycle but I think we’re headed for some pain. And so, even if I’m wrong I think there still will be some contraction and opportunity. And, you know, we had a well-known economist speak to the group. And, you know, he thinks it’s coming right away. Just listen to Peter Schiff, another economist on Joe Rogan, talk about the crash that’s coming. And, you know, and forgetting COVID and everything else it’s just, you know, that we’re in that place in the cycle. And so.

Anna: And we have to learn from the last time, you know. And that was the thing in the last 10 years. I spent my 10 years learning and saying, I knew a lot about investments and I thought I was really smart. And I was, you know, being cautious and conservative but there was still all these unknowns. And I realized I have to become a student of Macroeconomics, of Microeconomics, of real estate cycles, of local markets. And I just started studying and I thought we were at the top at the end of 08’ and I started slowly selling even though I was buying because I think you can make money in every market if you do it carefully. But I thought we were heading for a recession earlier. And so, I’ve sold quite a bit to position myself to buy quite a bit when the market changes but we’ve really got to become a student of the market. So, we’re not hurt as badly this time as we were last time.

Rod:  Yeah. I mean, impressive that you saw it because boy, I had my rose-colored glasses on as did most of the world. But, yeah. I will tell you and you are very smart by the way. Let me give you a public shout out on that regard. You’re one of the smartest women for sure that I’m associated with. And one of the things that she said guys is that she determined to buy real estate as a hedge. And I will tell you that, you know, we, I cited some examples and a presentation we did for the mastermind. In that, you know, multifamily after that crash recovered and exceeded pre-crash rents within three years. Okay? And that was like the huge crash. And so, you know, multifamily, and multifamily across the country I think only pulled back about 11% as far as collected rents. Which in most cases, you know, unless you’re stupid and aggressive in your analysis and projections on a property, is a pretty conservative amount. So, yeah. That’s why we love this business. So, fast forward to today. You know, I talked about some of your stats and you’ve, I know you’ve bought a lot of this stuff on your own. And I, would I be correct in saying more in the recent past you’ve started doing syndications and venturing out in more joint venture syndication type environment. Is that an accurate statement?

Anna: It is. And one of the things I love about multifamily abroad and even, you know, interacting with a lot of your investors in your mastermind, in your boardroom, is there so many ways to get in it and so many ways to get started. And depending on your time, your skills, and your money availability? There’s a different size of asset that might work for you and even your location. So, for me, I started out, you know, I was running my husband’s business. Working full-time. I had four kids. And I just was like, let every time I can get a chunk of cash or figure out how to take down a deal creatively? I’m buying locally another four-unit building because that’s what was available to me. And there weren’t a lot of investors looking for them. They were all going after the really big deals or the duplexes and the triplexes. So, I had this kind of niche where I was like, there’s opportunity. I can buy them cheap. It’s really stable in a growing area and that’s what I’m gonna buy. So, I really created the financial freedom and replaced my six-figure income on nothing but essentially, four-unit apartment buildings in, you know, rural Pennsylvania. And so, I retired in May of 2019. So, it’s just been about a year and a half, truly financially free. But right, you know, I was planning very methodically. I had a five-year plan to, you know, get to retirement. And about six months before I pulled the trigger, I thought now is the time that I’m, I can start living on this income. That I’m gonna scale up and buy some bigger properties. And then, I’m gonna do it with partners. So, I needed enough small properties I could bank on for 10 to 20 years of income that I wasn’t really focused on joint ventures or value-add deals that we’re gonna turn every three to five years. So, that’s just the way I did it. But six months before I retired, I knew I’ve always wanted to buy bigger. Once I realized the power of the passive income, I knew I wanted to do it at scale. And I started looking for properties. I could take down 70 to 100-unit buildings and as a joint venture. So, I bought three deals as joint ventures with three partnerships that totalled 200-units. And I purchased two of those deals just before I pulled the trigger at AIG. And then from there, I started syndicating in the last year. And I’ve now syndicated three apartment buildings and we’re closing on our fourth, 494-units Monday.

Rod:  What markets are you in?

Anna: I’m in Atlanta. Very close to you.

Rod:  Yeah.

Anna: And I’m in Houston Texas and Central Pennsylvania. And I’m buying the Carolina’s but I haven’t bought anything there yet.

Rod:  We love the Carolina’s. We’re not invested there yet but we love it. And we actually have an asset in Atlanta already. I mean, just Northeast of Atlanta in Oakwood. But actually, flying to Dallas Sunday for a couple of new assets. Near when we have so.

Anna: And I love those markets. You know, Atlanta, the thing I love about Atlanta and even part of Houston is, you know, even through COVID, Atlanta was a one of only three cities that rents put, during COVID it were increasing above what they were pre-COVID. So, there’s so much market growth. It’s a conservative state, less lockdowns, lower taxes. You know, those are the kind of assets I try to go after. Locations that, you know, have strong fundamentals where I’m not gonna get rent caps and tenant friendly. You know, judges that won’t let me evict people.

Rod:  Yeah. Let’s not go down that political side road because I honestly can’t wait till the election’s over.

Anna: Me too.

Rod: It’s so frustrating to me. What I’m saying.

Anna: I just mean from an investment standpoint.

Rod:  No, I got you but I went to the, I went there. But, yeah. It’s just watching the news again this morning and it’s so easy to get sucked into it. And, you know, I will tell you, I saw this fascinating movie. I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie “Social Dilemma”?

Anna: Yes.

Rod:  Isn’t that crazy?

Anna: It was pleasing.

Rod:  I know. And it speaks to and it really identifies the polarization that’s happening in this country and the impact of social media. Guys, if you have not watched the “Social Dilemma”, write it down right now. Especially if you have kids and go watch it because it is sobering. It is honestly a little scary but it is critical that you understand what’s happening with social media right now and because it’s dead on. Would you agree it’s absolutely accurate what’s happening?

Anna: Absolutely. There’s so much that we don’t understand is being planted in our minds. And different people seeing different things to make them think that something’s different is true than what you think is true. And it really, you know, can cause our country to be completely divided more so than it already has been. So, it’s really important that we wake up to what’s going on right now.

Rod:  Right. Yeah. So, back to this fun business that we’re in. This exciting frankly recession contraction resistant business that we’re in. Maybe even crash resistant. Honestly, because just past crashes and how well and resilient multifamily has been. What’s your favorite part of the business Anna?

Anna: You know, I really love most of it other than hands-on, do-it-yourself property management. It’s about the only part that I don’t like, you know. I self-managed everything. I retired. I self-managed, you know, 70-units with my husband and that was a pain. So, when I got to where I could shift from being property manager and asset manager to just doing asset management. Loved that you know, I’ve been involved in hedge fund development, and PPMs, and private placements for years. So, I enjoy, you know, underwriting and asset management. The banking, you know, a lot of it. But mostly, I love being able to see a business plan and see it come to fruition. And see us create, you know, value both for investors and in our communities. Really making a difference in the communities we live in is really important and exciting to me.

Rod:  So, you made it. I want to circle back to something you said. I just want to make sure I didn’t mishear it. Do you not do value-add deals?

Anna: No, I wouldn’t say I don’t do value-add deals. But let me say this Rod, because I became a student of market cycles, I truly believe that value-add deals especially if you need bridge debt. Because the best deals are usually those that have the most upside because there are problems. You’re not gonna get fixed agency debt. So, you’re getting bridge debt. You’re hoping that you can turn the apartment around in a year or two. You can sell it top dollar because you think the market’s gonna go up. Rents are gonna go up and you’re gonna refine and get out. When you’re coming out of recession into recovery, and you’re in the growth phase? From growth to hyper supply, value-add deals all day long. But as soon as you see pain and you think a recession is coming, and I watched all kinds of indicators to think it was coming sooner. And even despite COVID. At that point, I think it’s dangerous to have a value-add deal that’s a heavy value-add where you’re in bridge debt? Because if you’re gonna have an economy that contracts, rents could come down. Values could come down. And so, even if I go and put in sexy appliances. If tenants are worried about whether they’re about to be laid off, and can barely pay their bills, and now you have something like COVID? They don’t care if it’s granite countertops, stainless steel, hardwood flooring. They just want a nice, safe, clean place to live in a nice market. So, right now, because I believe we’re in a recession and I think we’re gonna be into recession recovery for several years. I don’t want to enter into any heavy value-add deals with bridge debt. Where I’m hoping things are better in two or three years. And maybe they’re not or maybe rates are higher. So, I’m looking for buy and hold deals right now that I’m gonna hold, you know, seven, 10 years plus with multiple exit strategies. I still want a value-add component. I mean, I don’t want to buy anything that turns green and just sit on it and have very low returns. But if I can find something where there’s $150-$200 potential rent bumps without a whole lot of heavy lifting and I can actually buy a stabilized property like that, with agency debt, then I’ll do those deals all day long.

Rod:  So, let me just describe what you just said for some of the brand-new people that don’t fully understand. Guys, to get agency debt, you have to be, the property has to be what they classify as stabilized. Meaning it needs to be 90% occupied for 90 days. And, you know, a lot of heavy value-add and that’s why I asked the question. I’m really glad you clarified because we’re doing value-add but we’re not doing bridge debt for god’s sakes right now. No way. By the way, bridge debt is for you in the single-family space is like the hard equity lending of the single-family space, that’s bridge loans. And they’re great. They serve a purpose. But let me give you the other thing that we’re not doing is, we’re not doing short term loans right now. Like three-year terms or even for us, even five-year terms. Because let me tell you the definition of a bad day, like Anna just described. Let’s say your rents go down or let’s say the cap rates change and you can’t get the value you want but you’ve got a beautiful cash flowing asset. And you need to pay that loan off and you can’t get the value you need to be able to refinance. That’s the definition of a bad freaking day. And I’m gonna tell you that’s gonna be happening to some people, you know, unfortunately that have this onerous bridge debt and there and, you know, when this market shifts. So, I’m glad I asked for clarification. That makes complete sense and yeah, we’re doing the same thing. I mean, these assets, you know, we want to see a couple hundred bucks a month in rent, you know. A quick, you know, quick increase in rents based on mark, you know, that sub market and the competitors but definitely no heavy value lifts right now. Yeah.

Anna: Yeah.

Rod: Yeah, Okay.

Anna: You know, what we just did one in Houston and we’re about to do another, you know, big one, in an Atlanta submarket. And basically, you know Rod, we’re just being really conservative on our underwriting. So, we’re trying to get, you know, a discount now, we’re assuming no rent increases for a year. No major capex for a year. Even though we’re still gonna push, we’re gonna see what the market will bear and try to do that much more quickly. But we’re just underwriting it to say, instead of saying, hey this is a three to five-year deal. Let’s assume it’s a five to seven-year deal. Let’s lock up that longer time debt and then let’s still try to be aggressive. As aggressive as the market will let us, you know, be.

Rod: Bump on the rents, you bet. Yeah, bumping the rents. We’ve always been conservative like, you know, we closed on an asset in Cinci and we can break even at 65% economically occupied which is super conservative. And we’ve got over a million dollars in the bank in adjusting case fund, you know, operating reserve. So heavy, heavy operating reserves and much more conservative on our break even. And that’s just prudent right now and, you know, a lot of skinny deals done over the last few years and, you know, I hate to say it and that’s why I talk about, you know, I put my rose colored glasses on. I’m not gonna look at it from a fear place. I’m gonna look at it from an opportunity place.

Anna: Absolutely.

Rod: Yeah.

Anna: Yeah. I think it’s important not to overpay, Rod. Because you know, what a lot of people that I see out there, they’re thinking, I’ve got to pay top dollar or I just can’t get a deal done. And there’s when we talk about the asset size. The reason I still buy small properties, medium-sized properties, large size properties, is in some markets like very large assets. You’ve got institutional buyers that are going after those and they just want a preservation of safety play. So, like you mentioned, multifamily was very resilient during the last recession. So, people are willing to pay top dollar, park their money there, and take low cash on cash returns just so that they have a safe place. So, if we’re trying to compete with the same deals it may be tougher. But if I minimize, if I go after a 75 or 90-unit property, I have less sharks swimming for those assets that are just looking for a safe place to park their cash. And I can still get deals done in this market that are still conservative. Still have some cash flow as well as that preservation of principle.

Rod:  Yeah. Same, same. We just bought an 88-unit. Actually, we’re closing on in two weeks. Same, same. So, yeah. I couldn’t agree more, you know, go for the low hanging fruit. And I may even go look smaller than that. If it’s in my backyard here, I’d look at a 20-unit, a 30-unit, Robert’s not too excited about it but, why not? Especially, you know, if they’re distressed and I’ve got a management infrastructure here, don’t use it a lot but it’s here. So, you know, why not?

Anna: Absolutely.

Rod: I heard your alarm go off. You’ve been on time or you’ve got a hard stop here?

Anna: I’m so sorry. I don’t know why it’s not muted. I’m good, let’s keep going.

Rod: Okay. All right. We’ll go just a little bit longer. So, what would you tell, you know, let’s speak to women for a minute? What would you tell a woman that wants, that thinks she might be interested in this business and hasn’t pulled the trigger yet? You know, what would you say to that person that maybe has a job, thinks they’d really love real estate, wants more for them for their family. What advice would you give them?

Anna: Sure. I would say, get started and get started right away. And, that it’s not gonna be easy. You know, it’s not that complicated truly of a business, but it’s not easy. And so, you know, as a woman, especially if you’re juggling kids and maybe you’re working a full-time job, it’s very difficult to find time to do anything. But the reality is, if you really want to change the financial trajectory of your family and you really want to create that time freedom to be home with your kids, you’ve got to be willing to carve out the time and just make the time. So, when you have a vision big enough and compelling enough and you know, for me it was, I got to get home with my babies. Because of the crash, it took a lot longer than I thought it would. I ran out of money. No one would lend to me. I could have given up so many times but I wanted it badly enough that I said every single day, I will carve out some time to take a step forward toward my goal of financial freedom. And to do whatever it takes to take up whatever time it takes to make it happen. And that it’s all worth it. You’ve just got to get started. You’ve got to take daily action. Keep that vision at the front of your mind when things get hard. Remember why you’re doing it and then just keep, you know, keep with it and don’t give up. Because real estate truly is, and I’ve seen and worked in every kind of investment for the wealthiest of the wealthy in our country, there is nothing more powerful than real estate to create financial freedom, to create wealth, and to preserve wealth than anything else available to us in this country.

Rod:  Yeah. Preserve wealth is the word because the tax benefits are off the hook. I mean, they’re fantastic. And, you know, one thing you said about carving out time and continuing to move forward. Happiness doesn’t come from the goal; it comes from that continual progress and growth. And you may have delays, you may have setbacks, but as long as you’re progressing, you’re happy and that’s critical. And yes, you may have to grind for a few years and give up some time with your kids for a few years to, you know, live the rest of your life like, you know, most people can’t live. And that’s why we do this. And you know, so let’s talk about a time you made a mistake in this business, and what that might have been, and the lesson in it, if you would. A real doozy if you can remember a good one.

Anna: Sure. I would say, you know, the biggest mistake that really wasn’t a particular deal. But just a mistake that I made that slowed me down, Rod, is that, you know. In 2009, when the market crashed and I had no more money. I mean, I lost almost all of it. I just used what I had for my 401k. I couldn’t get banks to say “yes”. We had $700,000 in business startup debt for my husband. So, we did not look good. And I basically just waited until I could find ways to scrape money together, borrow from people to find a deal. And I didn’t want to partner with people because I had been jaded by a fraud coach. And I was like, I don’t want anything to do with, you know, coaching and seminars and, you know, I just got jaded. And because of that, I did it all alone. It was my husband and I; you know, he did maintenance stuff but I handled the trying to find and I just, I felt all alone. I didn’t have a network and I didn’t have anyone to partner with. And when I finally said, I can’t go any further. You know, yes, I learned creative financing, and I took down several deals creatively which I’m thankful for, but it wasn’t until I started partnering and saying, do you want to buy a deal together? You put the money in, I’ll put my knowledge and the time in, that I really started to be able to scale and maximize my time so that I could do what I was good at. Use other people’s money to take on those deals. And I wish I had come to that realization and not been afraid to partner much earlier than I did.

Rod: Yeah. Hey guys, I’m so glad you said that, Kelly. And I’m sorry to hear about your mentorship experience. We actually, we interview our warrior students all the time and many of them had similar experiences. Very expensive experiences, like $30,000 which is quite a bit more than we charged. And you know, they lost. They, you know, pissed it away and it’s sad and fraud. I may want to ask you about that after the recordings turns off here, but wow! And guys, now, let me ask you this. How do you feel about mentorship and coaching? What is your personal opinion? Are you still jaded or how do you feel about it? In general.

Anna: No, no, not at all. You know, the key is to find somebody that, you know, really has the experience of what they claim. That they’re really gonna come alongside you and help you, and they’re not making more money on coaching than they are doing on doing deals. Because if they’re mostly just a coach and they haven’t been in the business and doing the deals, they’re motivated by just bringing in more students. Not really helping. But, reaching out to somebody like you that’s done deals, that’s been in real estate for years and years and you’re still actively doing deals. That’s what you want in a coach and a mentorship. And I just didn’t really have the knowledge to, I checked this woman out and she had all of her own social posts like press releases. But they look like they were from big businesses and it was really her making up her credentials. You know, and so, it was put on by a big, you know, real estate group. So, I thought, well, surely, they vetted her and they didn’t. But yes, mentorship will help you go further for sure because you have somebody that has experience that’s gonna help you, not to make the same mistakes that you would as a newbie by yourself.

Rod: Yeah, and you talk about environment. I mean, I will tell you my 20s, I did millions of dollars with the deals 50-50 with partners. So, those are you listening, I don’t know about you but I would take 50% of something over 100% of nothing like any day, yes. And it took you a minute to get that realization as well and, you know. Yeah. We bought, I think, just over 1500 doors with our students just in the last 18 months. So, we partnered with a lot as well with our students, but we’ve created this incredible ecosystem. I mean, it’s just truly awesome.

Anna: It is great.

Rod:  Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Well listen, I really appreciate you being on the show, Anna. You always are such a treat to be around and that brain of yours is very, very impressive. Is there a question that you wish I would have asked that I didn’t ask?

Anna: No. I think you’re a great interview host, Rod.

Rod: Thank you.

Anna: I hope that this brought value. You know, I think the key is, you know, we’re heading in for some pain. You become a student of the market. Just be conservative right now but don’t stop staying in the game just because there’s fear. You’ve got to be able to say these are challenges, how can I create solutions and create opportunity to continue to grow my wealth through these times.

Rod: Perfect ending. Thank you, Anna. It’s great to see you, my friend. I’m sure we’ll talk; we’ll see you soon. I know we’ve got mastermind events coming up both next month and we’re gonna do a post-election one. Talk about the election results and then we’ve got a big one in December but it’s great to see you. Thanks.

Anna: See you too, Rod. Thank you.