Mark Updegraff is the CEO and Founder of Updegraff Group Realty, Updegraff Management, Updegraff Services Inc., and Raze Capital, Mark is a driving force in real estate investment and operations. With a remarkable track record of over 200 million in real estate transactions, he orchestrates impactful developments while nurturing innovation, workforce growth, and economic vitality. Mark’s commitment to safe, sustainable, and affordable spaces fuels his mission to empower communities and inspire the best minds. Holding two active real estate broker’s licenses in New York, he continues to shape the landscape, elevating possibilities through strategic investments, capital raising, and asset management at Raze Capital.
Here’s some of the topics we covered:
- How Mark Was Losing Tons of Real Estate Opportunities
- Real Estate Foreclosures And The Money To Be Made
- Ninja Secrets To Marketing Yourself and Your Business
- How To Get Over The First Hard Years In Real estate
- The Systems and People Inside Your Business
- The Importance Of Environmental Reports
- The Key To Making Someone Feel Heard
To find out more about partnering or investing in a multifamily deal: Text Partner to 72345 or email Partner@RodKhleif.com
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Full Transcript Below
00:00:00:02 – 00:00:17:04
Rod
Welcome to another edition of Life Time Cash Flow Through Real Estate Investing. I’m Rod Cleef and I am thrilled that you’re here and I know you’re going to get tremendous value from the gentleman I’m interviewing today. He is a proverbial jack of all trades, and so we’ve got a lot of stuff we can talk about. I’m really excited to get into it.
00:00:17:04 – 00:00:30:02
Rod
His name is Mark up two Graf, and he owns raise Capital. Raise capital. Raise capital accom. And and man, I’m not even sure where to start, but I think what I’ll do. Welcome to the show, brother. Hey, right there.
00:00:30:05 – 00:00:31:09
Mark
Thank you so much for bringing me.
00:00:31:09 – 00:00:31:20
Rod
Yeah, yeah.
00:00:32:01 – 00:00:32:21
Mark
So there’s awesome down.
00:00:32:21 – 00:00:51:23
Rod
Here, right? Right. Yeah. So you put in your bio that you’re an advocate for Rochester, and I’m a freaking advocate for the Sarasota. I can be a poster child for the Chamber of Commerce here. I freakin love it here so much. So it’s good when you love where you live, you know? So why don’t you take a minute and just give us a little background on who you are?
00:00:52:01 – 00:01:05:13
Rod
You know, I know you told me all sorts of things that you, you know, your license for and you do. And there’s a lot of different things. So why don’t you kind of take us back to the start of that journey and bring us to, you know, high level kind of overview?
00:01:05:13 – 00:01:27:18
Mark
Yeah, absolutely. So in 97, I came to Rochester, I’m actually from Central Pennsylvania, and I came to get my degree from I.T. I’m a technician. I love math, I love science, but I also love the arts and being creative. So I found a degree where I could blend both of those. So as a perfect degree for me, I never thought I’d be in sales like in a million years.
00:01:27:18 – 00:01:44:09
Mark
I’d never saw myself in a sales position. But I went into industry, I worked, and I realized that, like, you’re not going to make a ton of money as a scientist, you know, not even a hundred grand. You could be there your whole career and you’re not going to break that ceiling. And while I was still getting my master’s degree, I bought a couple of rentals, right?
00:01:44:09 – 00:02:04:09
Mark
So I realized pretty quick that real estate could be a lucrative passive form of income. And I built that portfolio out. So, you know, half dozen units. And unfortunately, I got laid off. So at that point, you know, there were so many people in my marketplace with a similar degree. I was faced with a tough choice and I went to my wife.
00:02:04:09 – 00:02:20:17
Mark
I said, Hey, if you want me to stay in imaging, we’ve got to move like Herndon, DC. And she really liked her career. She’s at the hospital and we had these units that I bought initially. We only owned it for a few years and I kind of liked how that was going. And I said, Hey, I got this crazy idea.
00:02:20:19 – 00:02:47:06
Mark
I’m going to get my real estate license. And she’s like, Are you serious? You know, you don’t like realtors, You kind of despise them. I was like, Yeah, but I can open the door for myself. And I felt like it was the time, the market where I was losing opportunities because my realtor was slow, right? So I’d call him and he was busy selling a half million dollar house and he didn’t really care about me looking for these twos, threes, fours, you know, that are trading like 50,000 units or less.
00:02:47:08 – 00:03:04:20
Mark
So I got my license kind of for selfish purpose, but I knew I had to still put food on the table. So I told her I would give the sales the old, you know, college try and if it didn’t work out, I’d find something else to do. So she gave me a few of her friends that she worked with and I took them through the process.
00:03:04:21 – 00:03:24:09
Mark
So that’s how I kind of learn the ropes. You know, I had purchased on the sale side as a buyer, but I had never been a realtor. So I took them through that and they said, Hey, we loved working with you. You actually educated us. You showed us the things not to to avoid. And I’m you know, sometimes I made more work for myself than I would have otherwise just by pointing out those flaws and saying, hey, we can do better.
00:03:24:11 – 00:03:42:22
Mark
So I got that good feedback. And then I started learning about marketing and I took my small little, you know, my first year barely did any sales, 1.5 million. I was still managing properties. I was still running a small team of like four guys did 1.5. And then by my second year I was up to like 4 million.
00:03:42:22 – 00:04:01:09
Mark
And by my third year I was getting close to 10 million in sales. And this got the attention of my broker. He’s like, What are you doing? And I said, Well, I’m a marketing and I’m answering the phone and I’m converting lead and I’m taking it all the way to a sale. And so after that, you know, a lot of people came to me and said, you know, we I want to do what you’re doing.
00:04:01:09 – 00:04:11:08
Mark
I want investment properties. I want to build a portfolio. And, you know, there were so many opportunities that I couldn’t possibly buy them all. You know, the market was incredible.
00:04:11:10 – 00:04:13:10
Rod
So they would forgive me.
00:04:13:15 – 00:04:18:20
Mark
I started buying in oh eight and in Rochester, really, the prices like like everywhere else. And the talk.
00:04:18:20 – 00:04:19:18
Rod
About good timing.
00:04:19:18 – 00:04:20:16
Mark
Yeah, great timing.
00:04:20:16 – 00:04:21:15
Rod
Yeah.
00:04:21:17 – 00:04:34:07
Mark
So I had a good solid ten years where I taught over, Hey, the windows shutting, but let’s just get as much stuff through as we can, you know? And we’d watch the, the ground, we’d watch the pro forma, and we knew that it was shrinking and shrinking, but we were still making money.
00:04:34:08 – 00:04:36:04
Rod
And windows cracked open again, just so you know.
00:04:36:04 – 00:04:52:16
Mark
Yeah, yeah, I’m ready for it. So, you know, they came to me and then they said, Hey, I need a manager. I had interviewed managers for myself, for my portfolio. They were all horrible. I didn’t trust them with my assets, so I was self-managing. But I, you know, I had to have the broker’s license to manage for other people.
00:04:52:18 – 00:05:09:15
Mark
So when I told my broker that, you know, I got my broker’s license, he kind of shoot me off. And that’s when I watch my companies, you know, So we broker, we manage, and then I couldn’t control the contracting aspect of it because you call five contractors, the bids are all over the place. They won’t show up when they’re supposed to.
00:05:09:17 – 00:05:27:17
Mark
You got to check all your insurances sometimes the labs, and then you’re like in the middle of a job. So it was a nightmare. And I hired this guys on payroll and I started a little services division so we could do, you know, kitchens, bathrooms, flooring, windows will sub out the bigger stuff like roofing, plumbing, electric. I can send my guys wherever I need, whenever I need them.
00:05:27:19 – 00:05:34:23
Mark
And then we still have on the management side, you know, eight guys that run around and do all the make rent readies and take care of the the units that we have under management.
00:05:35:04 – 00:05:53:05
Rod
Hmm. Yeah, I was saying before we started recording the management is a thankless job. Nobody calls you one. They’re happy. The tenants call when they’re pissed and the owners call when they’re pissed. Yeah. And you know, it’s a it’s a you know, there’s a lot of burnout in that in that business, actually. I mean, I’ve owned a management company, like I told you, for decades.
00:05:53:07 – 00:06:25:16
Rod
You know, you talked about answering the phone with realtors. It’s hard to get realtors to answer the phone. It’s hard to get contractors to answer the phone. It’s like they don’t even want the business. Yeah. And so you kind of did it out of necessity. You also mentioned being a creative. And I knew that the minute I saw you long by the way, if you can’t see him, if you’re listening, he’s got very long hair down the middle of his back wearing like a it looks like a monet pattern and shirt and shorts and yeah, I knew you were creative, but it’s interesting that you’re also analytical.
00:06:25:18 – 00:06:44:16
Rod
So that’s very unusual to see both of those together. Yeah, that’s that’s that’s a massive skill set. Very unusual. Well, that’s awesome. And, you know, we talked about the fact that you’ve got you’ve got a broker’s license. You also have to have a separate license to be a GC. I’m sorry to be a broker managing property management up there, which is interesting.
00:06:44:16 – 00:06:54:08
Rod
Here in most states, one broker license is all you need to go do all of those things and then you’re a GC or you know, you’re converting talk about that deal, you’re converting right now. Talk about that. Sure.
00:06:54:13 – 00:07:10:08
Mark
I purchased an office building in downtown Rochester and it was a time before things really started to come around. You know, I have this knack for figuring out based on, you know, what the city initiatives are and what the private developers are doing to position myself a little bit ahead of the curve. So this thing came to market.
00:07:10:08 – 00:07:30:23
Mark
It was just sitting there and nobody wanted it. I picked it up for a really good price and, you know, we operated out of it as our headquarters for a long time and now we’re moving forward. We’ve redeveloped a new building that we’ve moved into for the office staff and we’re converting it into 16 luxury apartments. We’ll have commercial and grade and then we’ll still maintain the basement.
00:07:30:23 – 00:07:33:09
Rod
What do you mean by commercial grade? What’s that mean to you?
00:07:33:11 – 00:07:35:12
Mark
We’ll have a commercial space on the first floor.
00:07:35:15 – 00:07:39:11
Rod
Oh, I see. Maybe some retail or office or something. We got. Got you guys. You got. Yeah.
00:07:39:11 – 00:07:46:12
Mark
Okay, So, B mixed use. Got you. Ten residential and probably 2000 square feet of commercial. And then the basement. We’re still going to maintain ourselves.
00:07:46:13 – 00:08:02:05
Rod
Gotcha. Okay, very cool. And like you said, I, I said, are you a GC? And in New York you don’t have to be a GC to, to manage a project like that, which is very unusual in almost all states. You do. And I was shocked because New York has you know, it’s not known for not having regulations. Right.
00:08:02:05 – 00:08:11:23
Rod
Okay. And so so I know that you have been in the past, bought a lot of foreclosures and we talked about that, where you go to the courthouse steps. Why don’t you talk about that a little bit?
00:08:12:01 – 00:08:31:22
Mark
Yeah, So it kind of happens by chance. You know, I was a young investor. I was working with my realtor and his father, who was my landlord in college, goes the auction all the time. He’s like one of the best. He is the biggest player in Rochester. And I remember he was going to sell me one of the houses that he had bought.
00:08:32:00 – 00:08:47:18
Mark
And when I realized that he was marking it up $60,000, I was like, No. I was like, I want you to sell to me. The market up 20,000, okay? Like, he’s like, Mark, if you don’t buy it, I’m going to sell it to somebody else for more money. I am. This is the deal, right? If you want it, take it.
00:08:47:18 – 00:09:05:00
Mark
If not, I’ll make more money selling it to somebody else. And at that point, I was you know, I was young. It was still a good deal. He was right. Somebody did still buy it for more money. But I passed. I said, no, I’m not going to do that. But that really lit a fire under me to understand the foreclosure process and really figure it out.
00:09:05:00 – 00:09:27:17
Mark
You know, there’s no school on how to do foreclosures. And in New York State, you know, a lot of people will just show up and they’ll buy stuff and they won’t realize that not everything is cut off sometimes, right? So I’ve purchased properties where there have been another $80,000 that I’d have to pay off after. And now, of course, I know that going into the bids so I can calculate my max purchase price.
00:09:27:19 – 00:09:31:09
Mark
But there’s a lot of people that just show up and buy stuff and they don’t realize that. So you got to.
00:09:31:11 – 00:09:36:05
Rod
Stop you for one second. So. So the foreclosure doesn’t wipe off wipe out all other leads?
00:09:36:07 – 00:09:38:10
Mark
No. Now it’s all based on state.
00:09:38:10 – 00:09:39:12
Rod
What line? Stay on.
00:09:39:14 – 00:09:41:15
Mark
Anything. That’s certainly.
00:09:41:15 – 00:09:42:07
Rod
Taxes.
00:09:42:11 – 00:09:56:15
Mark
Right. So if you’re if you have a second position, lean on something. You have the right to foreclose, but you’re still going to be subservient to the first position. So if you walk in and you buy and you are the high bidder on that second position, foreclosure, you’re still subservient to the first place.
00:09:56:16 – 00:10:03:20
Rod
Oh, I see. So you got people that that that’s buy for the amount of the second and they don’t realize they have to pay off the first rate. Yeah, but it could.
00:10:03:20 – 00:10:11:12
Mark
Be taxes, it could be water, it could be, you know, there could be unnamed heirs. There’s a whole bunch of title stuff that could be wrong with it that you got to be careful.
00:10:11:13 – 00:10:31:10
Rod
Sure. Sure. Yeah. Taxes and water. Certainly those those those always come into play. And, you know, I used to work foreclosures. I bought hundreds of foreclosures, but I actually dealt directly with the sellers. I’d go knock on doors and buy them directly from the sellers. Yeah. Which is a different model. Yours is much easier. You just go to the courthouse and do your math and.
00:10:31:11 – 00:10:49:22
Rod
Yeah, but you know, I bought 500 houses in Denver knocking on doors and helping people that were in foreclosure a lifetime ago. Yeah. Yeah. I used to go down to the courthouse, get the list and race in a couple of guys. We’d race each other, try to, because the first one there is the one that gets them. Yeah, but so talk about, you know, it’s not all roses.
00:10:49:22 – 00:10:56:21
Rod
Talk about some of the, you know, good decisions you made and then maybe some of the bad decisions you’ve made that you discovered after you got going. Yeah.
00:10:56:21 – 00:11:06:14
Mark
So one of the first foreclosures that I bought, I was an idiot. Like, I try to educate people and have them not do what I did. I went in and just thought that everything was going to get wiped out. Maybe it is like that in other states.
00:11:06:14 – 00:11:08:04
Rod
Oh, so you got to lesson that one.
00:11:08:04 – 00:11:24:16
Mark
I got to I got a hard lesson. But luckily it was an IRS, right? A redemption. And the way that those work is that they have the right to redeem within. I think it’s 90 days after the sale ends, you will get your equity back if they do redeem. But you’re out of pocket, right? So you’ve paid all that cash and you got to sit and wait.
00:11:24:22 – 00:11:31:06
Mark
If you improve the if you improve the property during those 90 days, you could lose those that money. Yeah. So you got to kind of sit and waste.
00:11:31:06 – 00:11:32:03
Rod
No interest on that.
00:11:32:03 – 00:11:46:23
Mark
Money. No interest. You got your holding cost. And then if they don’t redeem, then you move forward. So the first first one that I did, the IRS actually came and looked at the house and I’ve talked to everybody that I know that does foreclosures and like they’ve never seen the IRS actually show up and look at the house.
00:11:47:01 – 00:11:53:10
Mark
And so I let the grass all grow really long as you know, I just made the house look is as horrible as possible when I walked in.
00:11:53:10 – 00:11:54:09
Rod
So you knew they were coming?
00:11:54:14 – 00:11:56:01
Mark
Yeah, They made an appointment. Okay.
00:11:56:02 – 00:12:14:11
Rod
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. You know, if you. I know in some states, if you buy tax liens that they’re for, you know, they’re going to foreclose on a tax lien, you actually get interest on your money. So that’s a stretch. You know, that’s a business model. So as you were, you know, you’ve done a lot of different things, real estate related, you’re in multifamily as well.
00:12:14:11 – 00:12:31:04
Rod
I think you said you’re in 100 doors, as you know, as part of this, you know, growth process that you’ve gone through. Talk about any epiphanies that you had. I mean, you talked about realizing that real estate looked like it could be good for you, but any aha moments as you were, you know, in this progression.
00:12:31:05 – 00:12:48:10
Mark
Oh, there’s been so many aha moments, you know, at first my aha moments like early on when I was first starting out was like whatever, I think it’s going to cost double it and then double it. Right. Because you have this vision in your head that, Oh, how hard can it be? I’ll get in there. It’s only going to cost this much money when really costs a lot more.
00:12:48:12 – 00:13:02:22
Rod
But you also said you’re dealing with antebellum antebellum houses. You’re dealing with hundred year old houses. Yeah. And then you dig into those. There’s all sorts of crap you find. Yeah. I mean, so you’ve dealt with those windows that have the ropes in the weights and the, you know, all of that leaded sat leaded windows.
00:13:02:22 – 00:13:21:11
Mark
Well, and at first, you know, I was on a budget, I was focused on cash flow. So we had to stretch the dollars as much as we could so we would recondition a lot of those would sash windows. Really recently I had you know, I had all these guys that go to the foreclosures. They don’t even buy title title insurance like they bought thousands of these properties is says Mark.
00:13:21:11 – 00:13:47:19
Mark
You know, if I spent $1,000 on title insurance every single time about a foreclosure, I would’ve spent millions of dollars is like I’ve never had an issue. I’ve been doing this for 30 years now. My attorney, you know, he’s got my back. He’s like, We’re not doing that. You’re getting title insurance every time you do something. And so one of these last multifamily that I got, it was seven Unit and it was off the steps and the guy was disgruntled and he tried to sue everybody under the sun, including me.
00:13:47:21 – 00:14:03:12
Mark
And you know, I had title insurance, which was good. But because he threw in this thing that I, you know, I stole his personal property, which was untrue. Right? I had still retained an attorney. So I was No. Ten grand even though I did have title insurance. So, you know, you could dot your I’s and cross your TS.
00:14:03:12 – 00:14:21:14
Mark
But at the end of the day, you know, investing in foreclosures is risky and you 80% are going to be winners and 20% are going to be losers. And you can’t just go in and cherry pick one deal, Reg, you’ve got to do it. And you can’t say, Hey, I want to be in classy neighborhood. Only, you know, you’re just not you’re going to spend your time is going to waste a lot of time.
00:14:21:16 – 00:14:29:03
Mark
It’s a volume game. You’ve got to look at everything, analyze all the deals, and then just take the opportunities that look good, knowing that 20% of them probably aren’t going to be good.
00:14:29:04 – 00:14:57:01
Rod
Interesting. Well, I know you’re doing a fund for this as well. Were you going to raise money and and go after these foreclosures? And the reason, by the way, guys, the reason I’m spending so much time talking about this right now is it’s coming. They’re coming again. Okay. This is all going full circle. And, you know, if I hadn’t been hiding under a rock licking my wounds in 2000, eight, nine, ten and 11, you know, I would be doing have been doing what Mark was doing and capitalizing on these great deals that are coming in.
00:14:57:01 – 00:15:00:00
Rod
They’re coming down. Would you agree we’re going to see deals again? Yeah. I mean.
00:15:00:00 – 00:15:00:21
Mark
We’re already seeing them.
00:15:00:21 – 00:15:02:12
Rod
You’re seeing foreclosures kick up, right?
00:15:02:13 – 00:15:05:14
Mark
$0.60, $0.60 on the dollar is pretty much where we’re at.
00:15:05:15 – 00:15:26:20
Rod
Yeah, You know, there there was a foreclosure moratorium where foreclosures, you know, they stopped them. And so, you know, now that they’re it’s like a logjam and they’re all coming back, back full circle because, you know, when I lost everything in 2008 nine, I started a litigation support company to help people that were in foreclosure. I did it in five states.
00:15:26:22 – 00:15:40:13
Rod
New Jersey was one of them, not New York. But but, you know, we help people, families save their homes. And it was a great business, but I didn’t like it because nobody’s happy when they’re losing their home. But I sold it a few years ago. But he’s killing it now. The guy that bought it is killing it. Yeah.
00:15:40:14 – 00:15:53:18
Rod
So there are a lot of foreclosures coming. So, so, so you’ve got the brokerage business. You’re actually selling people. You’ve got you’ve got agents that work underneath you then. Yeah. So you’ve got the brokerage business, you’ve got the property management business, you’re managing units.
00:15:53:18 – 00:15:54:05
Mark
Yeah, about four.
00:15:54:05 – 00:16:17:07
Rod
Hundred, 400 units. Okay. And then you’ve you’ve, you’re seeing your own renovation. You’ve got a service business to do your make readies on your, you know, of course you do that when you have a management company. That’s just one of the things when you’re dealing with, you know, smaller properties and you know, residential quote unquote, you know, say 0 to 10 units, you know, most people will utilize the management companies maintenance infrastructure.
00:16:17:07 – 00:16:20:00
Rod
So you’ve set that up. It’s a profit center, of course.
00:16:20:02 – 00:16:26:16
Mark
Yeah. And they get better. You know, we make a little bit of money and they still get a better deal than if they were to try to do this themselves, you know? Well, we work on such high volume.
00:16:26:16 – 00:16:42:19
Rod
Yeah, well I tell I tell people, you know, be very careful with that because you know, some management companies, that is a huge source of revenue for them. And you know, you could they could hire some kid of 15 bucks an hour and bill them out at 100, you know, So you really want to pay attention to that when you hire, you know, management companies for these smaller assets.
00:16:42:19 – 00:17:02:09
Rod
Now, if you’ve got, you know, 50, 60, 70 units, you have your own on site maintenance infrastructure. So you won’t rely on a management company, but when you’ve got a lot of stuff going. But I know that you are really good at marketing. We talked about that before we started recording. Yeah. So, you know, I know that you’re doing marketing for investors now.
00:17:02:10 – 00:17:19:19
Rod
Why don’t you talk about some of the strategy that you’re implementing to, you know, acclimate? I mean, obviously you’re doing the podcast interviews. You got, you know, you reached out, you got on this show, which is, you know, you’re going to be a home run, I promise. But you know what other sorts of things I’m in, I’m on.
00:17:19:22 – 00:17:28:22
Rod
I go on tons of podcasts. I get interviewed once today and probably twice yesterday. And I’m doing the same thing you’re doing because it creates reach. What else are you doing?
00:17:29:00 – 00:17:47:09
Mark
Yeah. So, I mean, marketing crosses all disciplines. So I started marketing back when I was doing sales for real estate and a lot of what I learned during that process, right, Because nobody taught me I didn’t have any kind of mentorship. I pretty much had to figure it out on my own. It all translates to any kind of sale.
00:17:47:11 – 00:18:04:21
Mark
And really, I would say the number one thing is like, treat everything like ping pong, right? So when somebody gives you something, get it right back to them. Even if you don’t have the full final answer. Right. Say that. Say they’re asking you a question, but just volleying it back so they understand that you’re on top of it and you’re working on it.
00:18:04:23 – 00:18:06:01
Mark
So I treat my like super.
00:18:06:01 – 00:18:07:02
Rod
Responsive, super.
00:18:07:02 – 00:18:26:18
Mark
Responsive to everything. Like I won’t go to bed unless everybody has had their response. Right? And so they might be getting emails really late and then once in a while accidentally text and be like, Oh shoot, I shouldn’t have done that. But you can get a CRM and you can start scheduling some of that stuff to take a little bit, that little bit that load off of you.
00:18:26:20 – 00:18:29:00
Mark
But I think that’s really the number one key.
00:18:29:01 – 00:18:38:16
Rod
So, so number one is responsiveness now. Now, do you do I’m assuming you do a lot of social media related stuff, so speak to that a little bit.
00:18:38:18 – 00:18:56:12
Mark
Social media, there’s so many different platforms. So really, if you’re if you’re coming in, you really don’t know where to start. You probably want to just pick one platform and get really good at it and then add on a second platform. Start taking some of the content you have in one platform and and dice it up into the other platforms, but don’t focus as much on them.
00:18:56:14 – 00:19:11:15
Mark
So you really want to start and build an audience. And once you have that audience, now you’ll start to gain traction. You’ll start to get some some more reach just from that audience. And then the leads that come in will be a higher conversion rate. They’ll be higher quality.
00:19:11:15 – 00:19:28:04
Rod
Sure. So, so so let me let me let me add something to what you just said. So as you’re building that audience and I talk about this with my students, it’s there’s two things you want to focus on. You pick that vehicle, whichever one of you know, if YouTube, if it’s if it’s Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, whatever it is.
00:19:28:06 – 00:19:56:20
Rod
And and you’re right, focus on one for sure. But but focus on two things. One, adding value, educating and then secondarily, being consistent. Yeah and it’s not a once and done thing and it’s going to suck the first few months and maybe even the first year you’re going to not see a lot of traction. But then it just, it, it, it, it builds on itself and like you said, as it relates to raising equity, if you’re adding value consistently, you know, people appreciate that.
00:19:56:20 – 00:20:14:22
Rod
And then and then and then what you said is brilliant. You know, when when you have engagement, you’re responsive, you’re interacting with people. And and we have people that do that and all our social channels very, very well. And it’s been incredibly effective. And I’m very responsive as well. I mean, you ping me, you will get an answer to your question.
00:20:14:22 – 00:20:32:04
Rod
If my team can’t answer it, I will answer it. I answer every single question. And sometimes you’re like, is this really you or is it a bot? And I’ll send a picture, you know, with the peace sign and whatnot, you know, in my underwear or whatever. But but so responsive, adding value, being consistent, what platforms do you happen to like the best?
00:20:32:04 – 00:20:33:10
Rod
Just out of curiosity, right.
00:20:33:10 – 00:20:50:21
Mark
Now, I’m focusing on LinkedIn and what I would tell the audience is like, you want to think of it as documenting versus recording, right? If you have this mentality where you wake up and you’re like dreading having to figure out what you’re going to record for your content, it’s not going to be fine. You’re not going to do a very good job.
00:20:50:23 – 00:21:08:00
Mark
But if you can just flip the switch in your brain and say, Look, I’m already doing all this stuff. I’m already adding value to people in real life, you know, you’re helping them. You just need to document that. Right? And you got to figure out how are you going to document? Do you like video? Do you like writing articles, Do you like photos?
00:21:08:00 – 00:21:22:15
Mark
And then, you know, once you figure out, you know, your form and you can mix it up and if you like all of them, you know, do a little bit of each. People like that, you know, just document, write, document, document, document. Just bring your camera with you everywhere you go. And you know, see, you have a new investor that comes in.
00:21:22:18 – 00:21:37:21
Mark
Just ask them, hey, you know, I really like to get myself out there on the Internet. Would you mind if I just record this conversation? I’ll show it to you before I publish it. And, you know, I might not even need you. I’ll probably just be using clips of stuff that I’m telling you, because that’s what I do.
00:21:37:23 – 00:21:55:21
Rod
By the way, I just flipped off my my guy back here because he’s bugging me all the time to frickin document what I’m doing. And he’s like, he’s like, waving and smiling, and I just have to give him the finger because I, I, you know, that’s the tough that’s the thing I struggle with the most is picking up the phone and saying, hey, this is what I’m having for breakfast, you know, And breakfast.
00:21:55:21 – 00:22:11:12
Rod
Yeah, that’s okay. All right. Well, you know, the food, I, I really struggle with it. I did just did a reel and showed them the. No, the roof that’s being replaced outside. But yeah, that’s really good that was that was helpful for me. Candidly, I like the way you described that is just documenting and I’ve just got to become better at it myself.
00:22:11:12 – 00:22:18:14
Rod
But that’s that’s powerful. So let me ask you this. In all these things that you do, what’s the most challenging for you?
00:22:18:16 – 00:22:32:11
Mark
The most challenging is always going to be, you know, working with people, working with the staff. You know, luckily, I’ve been doing this for over a decade now, so I’ve got a good staff that’s been with me for a number of years. But in the beginning there’s a lot of churn, right?
00:22:32:11 – 00:22:34:20
Rod
You sure the right people? Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:34:21 – 00:22:50:03
Mark
My father has a really good analogy that he told me a number of years ago when I was in his office. He said, Son, you know all those blue notes I got in the other room, I’m like, Yeah. He’s like, you know, you know, they’re stacked all the way, the ceiling like, Yeah, what’s the what’s the big deal?
00:22:50:05 – 00:23:13:06
Mark
It’s like, Son, those are previous employees. I’ve seen every single personality that walks across God’s green earth, and they’re all inside of those blue totes, right? So the hardest part is just being able to realize that there’s going to be a lot of different people that you’re going to interact with, whether they’re on your payroll, whether they’re your vendor, whether they’re your your clients.
00:23:13:08 – 00:23:31:04
Mark
And the sooner that you can realize that and and kind of like structure it where you say, okay, I understand this type of person, I understand that type of person, you’re going to do really well. Yeah. Especially on the staffing side, right? When you got to work with these people on a daily basis, if you got one bad apple in there, it’s going to spoil the whole bunch.
00:23:31:04 – 00:23:34:01
Mark
So you got to really pay attention to your personnel.
00:23:34:03 – 00:23:54:04
Rod
Now, that’s super important. I mean, any business is nothing but people and systems. So, you know, you get the systems and the checklists and all that things which which of course in the management business is a lot of and and and you get the and you get the people right you’re off to the races. Well okay so I asked you what you would do most challenging what do you enjoy the most in what you do in all the different disciplines that you’re involved in?
00:23:54:05 – 00:24:10:05
Mark
Yeah, I mean, I love helping people. Yeah. So yeah, I just just it warms my heart. So when I can have those stories where we just. I hit a home run for somebody else, That’s why I get up in the morning because, you know, usually when people come to you, they got this scarcity mindset. They’re like, If it’s such a good deal, why aren’t you doing it?
00:24:10:05 – 00:24:24:10
Mark
You know, if I could have a nickel for every time I heard that, right. A billionaire. Right. Right. And you got to get them to flip their mental script and say, Hey, this is a world of abundance. And if you’re going to have the scarcity mindset, you’re not going to get anywhere. You really got to have that abundance mindset.
00:24:24:15 – 00:24:33:04
Mark
So for me, I love helping people. And then when they realize, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I just trusted this guy and I just hit this incredible homerun.
00:24:33:09 – 00:24:59:13
Rod
Yeah, yeah. I mean, successful people have an abundance mindset. They realize opportunities are limitless and people that aren’t, you know, that live in scarcity, they never take any action. It’s sad. But so, you know, I have a lot of aspiring real estate investors that listen to my show, people that haven’t taken action yet. Maybe they own a house or two, but they know that they need to go bigger if they’re going to, you know, set the set themselves up with time.
00:24:59:13 – 00:25:06:02
Rod
Freedom and money. Freedom and have, you know, a life that they really want. Speak to those people for a minute. What would you tell those people?
00:25:06:04 – 00:25:23:04
Mark
Oh, man, it’s tough. You know, it’s going to depend on where they’re coming from. But, you know, when I think about my father’s career and what he had to sacrifice in order to give my sisters and I the leg up that we’ve had to be able to be where we are. Like, I would not be where I am today if it wasn’t for the sacrifices that he made.
00:25:23:06 – 00:25:44:18
Mark
So I think a lot of people that say, oh, real estate, you know, I want to do it or whatever, they think it’s going to be this kind of easy. But and it’s a ton of work. It’s just an overwhelming amount of work, from the research to the due diligence and just doing it and grinding it out. So if you want to still have a social life and you want to like have a family life, like in the beginning of your career, you don’t have those things.
00:25:44:19 – 00:26:04:11
Mark
Like you just you work your butt off and you realize that you’re you’ve got an end in mind, right? I want to set myself up so my family can go to college and not have to work quite as hard as I did and have a legacy that I can give to them. So, you know, I’m doing it for them and I just You can’t.
00:26:04:12 – 00:26:05:18
Rod
But is it worth it?
00:26:05:20 – 00:26:07:07
Mark
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
00:26:07:09 – 00:26:21:08
Rod
Absolutely. Because you just you just drain the blood from everybody’s face listening. I want I want to be frickin worth it. It’s yes, it’s not easy. It’s it’s hard. But it’s also, you know, it’s it’s doable. It’s not.
00:26:21:08 – 00:26:23:09
Mark
Forever. It’s. It’s a sacrifice that you make.
00:26:23:09 – 00:26:28:06
Rod
It’s I say it grind for a few years like most people won’t. You’ll live the rest of your life, right? Most people right.
00:26:28:09 – 00:26:30:05
Mark
But I think you really have to do that beginning.
00:26:30:06 – 00:26:46:20
Rod
Yeah, you do? Yeah, absolutely. And anything that you do, you want to start a business, You want to do a side hustle of any kind. You’re going to have to be organized. But you know, I’ve got students that have done this on the side with with consuming very high paying W-2 jobs, kids and family, and they’re able to manage it and make it happen.
00:26:46:22 – 00:27:06:02
Rod
I, you know, I’m sure they had a lot of late nights and early mornings and weekends and so on and so forth. But but is it worth it? You better frickin believe it. They they’re retired from those high paying W-2 jobs. So, you know, as you’re building your empire here, Mark, you know, we talked about people a little bit.
00:27:06:04 – 00:27:18:08
Rod
What sort of people did you align with to get the traction that you’ve gotten in your different businesses? Can can you speak to that a little bit or is that is there an answer to that question for you?
00:27:18:10 – 00:27:33:02
Mark
I mean, I, I work with anybody and it’s kind of like comes back to those blue totes. It’s like if I identify somebody that’s not going to be a good fit, I’m not going to be mean to anyone, Right? I’m not going to pursue that that relationship.
00:27:33:05 – 00:27:34:00
Rod
Right.
00:27:34:02 – 00:27:51:09
Mark
So I just know the right people now because I’ve met all these different personalities and I know when I find the right person, it’s just it’s you just know, right? And those are the people that they become really good friends. They care about you. You care about them. You know about their family. They know. They know about your family.
00:27:51:09 – 00:28:01:16
Mark
It’s it’s more than just a business transaction. It’s like a team. Yeah. And I think you can pretty much identify those early on based on how the relationship forms.
00:28:01:20 – 00:28:13:21
Rod
Mm hmm. Okay. What are some of the best advice you’ve ever gotten? You talk about your dad a lot. You talk talk about some of the best advice may be from him or maybe. Sure. Someone else. Whatever.
00:28:13:23 – 00:28:32:15
Mark
Yeah. So my dad’s not in real estate. He’s in transportation. But I think in business, a lot of these things translate the best thing that he’s the best advice he’s ever given me. That’s like been very helpful for me is, you know, when you’re when you’re talking just in general, like anything that you say, if it can’t help you, it can only hurt you.
00:28:32:17 – 00:28:49:13
Mark
Right? And so when I’m having conversations with people, I try to keep that in the back of my head because a lot of times we just want to talk about stuff and a lot of times those things are not going to help us. Therefore they can only hurt us, right? So I try to eliminate those things from what I talk about and only talk about things that can help.
00:28:49:15 – 00:28:59:12
Rod
Hmm. Interesting. You know, you’re obviously very driven and motivated and inspired. Where does that come from? What’s the what’s the why?
00:28:59:13 – 00:29:01:07
Mark
Oh, my wife and kids. Yeah.
00:29:01:09 – 00:29:02:11
Rod
How old are your kids?
00:29:02:13 – 00:29:18:01
Mark
I’ve got a 11 year old. Seven year old and a three year old. She’s turning three. And, you know, it’s my wife and I have been together since we were 15. So, you know, we’ve been doing this before. We knew what we were doing, right? I was like, Hey, I think I want to buy a rental property. And she’s like, Are you sure?
00:29:18:01 – 00:29:22:09
Mark
I’m like, Yeah, let’s do it. So she’s really been for me there, you know, since that’s so.
00:29:22:09 – 00:29:42:15
Rod
Critical, that support system at home is so critical. You know what? That’s one of the topics I bring up at my bootcamps. You know who who at home has somebody that doesn’t believe in you or doesn’t believe in what you’re doing? They’re like, Oh, that’s great for you, but not for me kind of a thing. And and working through that to help people that want to get into this business, you know, that’s such a so it’s pivotal.
00:29:42:15 – 00:30:07:08
Rod
It’s critical that they that they fix that and get that support system because it’s, you know, the most successful people on the planet have that they have a wife or they have a husband that that that’s totally in their corner to help them. Do you have any favorite quotes that you live by, Any any quotes that have that have you know, that you pull back to and help you with moving through anything or anything come to mind?
00:30:07:08 – 00:30:15:21
Mark
I mean, nothing I can think off the top of my head. I was raised Presbyterian. So, you know, there’s tons of Bible verses flying over my head, you know, the Psalms, the Proverbs.
00:30:15:21 – 00:30:18:03
Rod
Sure, sure, sure. Oh, that’s this is awesome. I mean.
00:30:18:03 – 00:30:19:15
Mark
That’s just the golden.
00:30:19:15 – 00:30:30:09
Rod
Rule. Sure, sure, sure. Do you do you have a favorite failure that you had that may have set you up for future success? And it was a lesson in I know we all have tons of these. I guess I’m.
00:30:30:11 – 00:30:31:06
Mark
Actually okay.
00:30:31:06 – 00:30:32:00
Rod
Let’s hear this.
00:30:32:02 – 00:30:49:10
Mark
It’s pretty relevant to the real estate side of things. So I told you, I got laid off, right? And I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. Well, for a brief stint, my father said, Hey, come come home and work at the transportation company with me. And of course, you know, being my dad and being very like, can’t give my son any perks.
00:30:49:10 – 00:30:58:01
Mark
He’s got to work his way up from the bottom to the top. He gave me a job where it was back when the hydrofracking was going crazy in Pennsylvania, central Pennsylvania and all.
00:30:58:01 – 00:30:59:00
Rod
That’s right. The fracking.
00:30:59:00 – 00:31:16:20
Mark
Yeah. And he got into the sand hauling with pneumatics. And my job was to be on the pad site, you know, as the sun was coming up or before the sun was coming up and back up the tractor trailers, you know, I’m like flagging them, show him where to go, and then hooking up the tube and going like this.
00:31:16:20 – 00:31:33:16
Mark
And then they would start blowing the sand into the hopper and it would go down into the well. And that’s how they get the gas out. Well, I’m standing next to a diesel engine for this hog, right, that there’s a conveyor belt system for the sand. So I’m breathing carbon monoxide all day and I’m having these, like huge headaches when I at the end of the day.
00:31:33:17 – 00:31:35:09
Mark
Wow. And it keeps coming down like, look.
00:31:35:14 – 00:31:35:23
Rod
I got.
00:31:36:01 – 00:31:37:20
Mark
Two college degrees, like.
00:31:37:22 – 00:31:40:00
Rod
I need to be bus stop killing brain cells.
00:31:40:01 – 00:31:54:06
Mark
I get massive headaches. And, you know, he just he’s very old school. He didn’t want to hear it. So I told him, you know, I’m politely not going to take the job. I didn’t charge him for any of my labor. You know, I stayed with him for about a month and I said, hey, it was a good learning experience on my end.
00:31:54:08 – 00:32:11:19
Mark
But what did happen was when I was there, I realized the opportunity for investing in some of these rural towns, specifically in regards to gas rates. Right? So I went to, you know, because I I’d already bought a couple in Rochester, my first couple of foreclosures, and I bought a couple in Pennsylvania. So I had two states under my belt and they were a little bit different.
00:32:11:19 – 00:32:26:04
Mark
And so now I’m going back into Pennsylvania and I’m going to these rural places in the middle of nowhere. And, you know, the the sheriff’s list is like pinned to his door. And you’ve got to like, take a picture of it or or write it down or whatever. And then finding the properties, it’s talking.
00:32:26:04 – 00:32:26:08
Rod
About.
00:32:26:08 – 00:32:32:02
Mark
Foreclosure. Yeah, foreclosures. It’s like rural, rural. One, four, seven.
00:32:32:04 – 00:32:33:15
Rod
Nine, you know? That’s right. Yeah.
00:32:33:17 – 00:32:49:20
Mark
So I found one and it was on ten acres and it had a beautiful log house. It was built in like two 2000, 2005 or something like that. And it was a liar loan, you know, the woman couldn’t pay it. She never got it and she was destroying it. She had a bunch of animals, but we bought that as a foreclosure.
00:32:49:20 – 00:33:01:17
Mark
I showed up for the auction. There’s nobody else to bid. It was just me in the bank. Wow. So the bank pretty much went to their upset price and stopped. And then we took it down. And I told them, you know, we partnered on this deal and that was kind of who partnered.
00:33:01:17 – 00:33:01:22
Rod
On the.
00:33:01:22 – 00:33:18:01
Mark
Deal? My father and I got great. So that was like, Hey, you know, our partnership didn’t work out, me working for you as an employee, right? But let’s try to be partners on this real estate deal. I’ll go do the due diligence. You front the capital and, you know, I think that we can get something with some gas rates and we can lease it out.
00:33:18:03 – 00:33:37:11
Mark
So we hit the nail on the head. You know, we had Chesapeake renting the house from us to put their workers in a beautiful four bedroom. The checks just came like clockwork. And, you know, we didn’t get gas royalties until recently. So we’ve on this thing for, you know, ten, ten plus years now. And when the price of gas goes up, they crack that valve and you start to get paid royalties.
00:33:37:13 – 00:33:48:04
Mark
Well, and, you know, so he’s been like teasing me, showing me these really piddly checks over the years. Be like, hi, you’re your gas deal. Yeah that that didn’t really pan out. Oh yeah. All of a.
00:33:48:04 – 00:33:49:22
Rod
Sudden every Thanksgiving. Yeah.
00:33:50:00 – 00:34:02:02
Mark
But all of a sudden, well, we get got some money, so it wasn’t like that. He just kind of like, you know, poke the bear or whatever. But over the last couple of years, the checks have just been like rip ridiculous. And he’s like, Oh, okay. I guess you didn’t know what you’re.
00:34:02:02 – 00:34:10:11
Rod
Yeah, well, that’s that’s rewarding. That’s rewarding, especially with parents. I love it. Yeah. So how do you want to be remembered, Mart?
00:34:10:13 – 00:34:29:04
Mark
How much of that gives back? You know, so my, my parents are really involved in mission work, and so I want to get my kids did that with us when we were kids. I want to get my kids into it. So we’re thinking this year they’re going back to Honduras and Honduras every year. I’m hoping to get my son down there this year and and do that.
00:34:29:04 – 00:34:45:17
Rod
Yeah, that’s exactly where I want to go down, down Latin America to do things myself. No, I love it. So let’s talk about leadership for a minute, because you’re a leader in lots of different capacities. You know, what is a characteristic that you think every leader should have? And it can be more than one if you want.
00:34:45:19 – 00:35:06:00
Mark
Yeah, the one that my dad always harps on me that I got to be better at. And so it’s probably the most important one is like you got to be super diligent about everything. And you know, as you become a leader and your organization grows around you, you know, you have to trust your people, obviously, but that doesn’t mean you can’t you shouldn’t, you know, check and see what’s going on.
00:35:06:00 – 00:35:21:21
Mark
Right. You always kind of have to have your pulse, your you have to have the pulse of what everyone is doing, which it can get mind boggling. Right. You have 15, 20 people on staff and it gets hard. But, you know, you can have managers that manage other people. But but ultimately, you can’t just go to your desk and do your thing.
00:35:21:21 – 00:35:30:22
Mark
You know what I mean? I would love to sit down on my desk and raise capital all day. Right. But I. Can you know, I got to make sure that this is going good and that’s going good.
00:35:31:00 – 00:35:49:02
Rod
You know, I’ll tell you, I’ll just give you a little feedback. We’ve implemented something called iOS. It’s from the book Traction. And if you’ve heard of it, yeah, it’s really powerful. I’d highly recommend giving it a look because it just kind of gives you clarity and helps kind of get rid of all the noise so you can focus on what’s most important.
00:35:49:02 – 00:36:05:21
Rod
That’s been implement. I mean, I introduced it to the members of my mastermind and all big hitters with thousands and thousands of doors and probably 90% of them implemented it. So what’s some bad advice you’ve gotten over the years along the way here?
00:36:05:23 – 00:36:20:13
Mark
Well, I mean, everybody’s trying to sell you something, right? So sometimes I just I bought some stuff that I probably shouldn’t have bought, you know what I mean? As far as like, salespeople come in and they got services that conquer the world and, you know, you just got to be careful. So I’m very.
00:36:20:14 – 00:36:21:15
Rod
Tools. You mean things.
00:36:21:15 – 00:36:26:02
Mark
You know, like, like services, like dealing with the union or stuff.
00:36:26:03 – 00:36:28:00
Rod
Yeah. You have to deal with that crap. Okay. Yeah.
00:36:28:02 – 00:36:29:04
Mark
Okay. So.
00:36:29:06 – 00:36:29:21
Rod
Okay, you.
00:36:29:21 – 00:36:30:20
Mark
Know, just be careful.
00:36:30:23 – 00:36:42:06
Rod
Sure, sure, sure. So if you lost everything today and you had to rebuild yourself, you know, say, in a new location with no context. Sure. You know, what steps would you take to rebuild?
00:36:42:08 – 00:37:05:03
Mark
Well, you’ve got to go back to saving capital right? Because real estate, I still love it. I’m never going to go away. So if I got wiped out, I would be right back to real estate again. And to get into real estate, I’m a buy and hold guy, so I would need capital. So I’d be thinking of ways that I could generate capital, probably not real estate related with as little out of pocket as possible so I could build that bankroll.
00:37:05:05 – 00:37:07:05
Mark
I could get myself back in it. Some some deals.
00:37:07:05 – 00:37:30:00
Rod
Yeah. No, for sure. Talking. You know, you’ve done single family, you’ve done small multifamily, you’ve, you know, you’re doing that renovation, you know, conversion from office to multifamily. Do you see yourself doing more of that? And kind of what was the impetus or the, you know, the catalyst for you to even consider doing that?
00:37:30:02 – 00:37:50:20
Mark
That’s a great question. So I think I in my head, I had this like vision of what being a developer would be, right, and I just wanted to do it. I wanted to check that box. And now going through the process, I’m not opposed to it, but I don’t know if I want to be the developer or if I just want to like hire the developer, you know what I mean?
00:37:50:22 – 00:37:52:04
Mark
It’s a lot of work. Yeah.
00:37:52:04 – 00:37:56:17
Rod
So you had to go through entitlement and plans and architecture and everything. Yeah.
00:37:56:19 – 00:38:02:13
Mark
I’m doing everything good. We’re the GC, I’m the developer. I got the funding myself. Like, yeah.
00:38:02:14 – 00:38:05:15
Rod
I’m tired just sitting here talking to you about it. Good God.
00:38:05:17 – 00:38:09:01
Mark
I watched the interest rates go up around me while this was all happening.
00:38:09:02 – 00:38:10:05
Rod
Yeah, that’s scary too.
00:38:10:05 – 00:38:16:21
Mark
So I bought it. I bought the property and had a clean phase one in the eighties and I thought, I’ll be good. And so I was.
00:38:16:22 – 00:38:17:14
Rod
Supposed to be.
00:38:17:14 – 00:38:24:04
Mark
Yeah, well, I go to the bank and they’re like, Oh no, they’ve changed. They were allowed to bury these tanks filled with water in the eighties and now you’re not.
00:38:24:06 – 00:38:47:09
Rod
By the way, those Are you listening? What he’s talking about is a phase one environmental report. And and here’s why they’re freaking important. If you buy a piece of property and you find out that there was a dry cleaner on it or a gas station or something like that, that could leak into the soil, if you buy a property and you close on it and the EPA comes tomorrow and they find that, guess who’s responsible for it?
00:38:47:09 – 00:39:02:15
Rod
You are. So I don’t care if you buy a property using seller financing, you always, always, always get a phase one to make sure there’s nothing going on. Yeah, it’s not an ask me how I know thing I say. I say a lot of things Don’t do that. Ask me how I know because I’ve made every possible mistake.
00:39:02:15 – 00:39:04:16
Rod
Thank God I’ve never made that one. But yeah.
00:39:04:16 – 00:39:06:00
Mark
It could be. That could wipe you out.
00:39:06:00 – 00:39:07:14
Rod
Oh, totally, totally, totally.
00:39:07:16 – 00:39:10:01
Mark
Um, you’re not done until they tell you you’re done, right?
00:39:10:04 – 00:39:18:16
Rod
Yeah. Oh, and it’s not cheap. I mean, sometimes, you know, depending on the severity of it, you could literally be digging a pit there to get rid of everything.
00:39:18:16 – 00:39:35:06
Mark
Yeah, that’s exactly what we had to do in rate. So I could have. I could have locked it like, you know, four or 5%. And they’re like, no guy gets tanks out. And then I’m subject to this one contractor in our town that can remove the tanks. Water has got to get tested. So I’m subject to their schedule, has the water and the rates are just like I’m like, oh.
00:39:35:08 – 00:39:36:15
Rod
Great, keep going.
00:39:36:17 – 00:39:42:09
Mark
Keep my equity to the table. Changed significantly. Yeah. 5300.
00:39:42:14 – 00:39:47:22
Rod
Maybe this is the answer to this question I was going to ask you. What’s the most stressful thing you’ve ever gone through? Would that be it? Or is there something.
00:39:47:22 – 00:39:50:13
Mark
That’s going on now? I’ve been through way more stressful.
00:39:50:13 – 00:39:53:09
Rod
Yeah. I’ll get you to give us a doozy.
00:39:53:11 – 00:39:57:23
Mark
Well, I had a guy that was stealing, and I.
00:39:58:01 – 00:39:58:14
Rod
Had that, too.
00:39:58:14 – 00:40:06:16
Mark
Yeah, he would have our clients, you know, we would bid stuff on our letterhead. He would. He you know, he had a previous relationship with them before he started working.
00:40:06:20 – 00:40:07:22
Rod
With these clients. Yeah.
00:40:08:02 – 00:40:26:11
Mark
He’s like, Hey, I’m going to bring a few of my clients when you hire me is like, That’s fine. So he’d put stuff on our letterhead and then he would have them write him checks directly. And, you know, it all came to a head and we’re like trying to figure out what’s going on. Eventually we just started going through all his stuff and we found some of the checks and he ended up killing himself.
00:40:26:11 – 00:40:30:17
Mark
Oh, guess it turned out that like he had some drug problems and.
00:40:30:19 – 00:40:46:12
Rod
Oh geez, that’s quite a story. Holy cow. Well, that that that was a doozy. Was there anyone in your journey that that that as a mentor, I mean, you talked about your dad, but anyone else come to mind with mentorship for you?
00:40:46:14 – 00:41:04:15
Mark
Yeah. So I treat everybody like a potential mentor. Well, that’s great answer because everybody knows stuff that they’re passionate about, right? And I want to know what they’re into. So whenever I meet somebody, I’m just kind of figuring out what they like and then I’m just asking them questions that people like to talk and I like to learn.
00:41:04:16 – 00:41:12:07
Mark
So it’s pretty easy. And I think that’s why I’ve been good at sales is because, like whoever I meet, I don’t care what they’re into. I’m going to learn about it.
00:41:12:09 – 00:41:31:06
Rod
With that attitude. Yeah, that attitude, by the way, is fantastic because you’re listening. You’re actually listening. Unlike me, which is I’m busy interrupting like I just did. But you, you’re actively listening. And so, you know, like, like Dale Carnegie’s book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, you take an active interest in someone. They think it’s the best conversation they’ve ever had.
00:41:31:06 – 00:41:38:20
Rod
Yeah. And so that’s a that’s a superpower, brother. I have to I have to commend you for that one. Was there anyone along the way that opened doors for you?
00:41:38:22 – 00:41:44:12
Mark
Not necessarily. I mean, I made them I made them open the door because I would go and say.
00:41:44:12 – 00:41:45:10
Rod
Hey, it kicked that door.
00:41:45:10 – 00:42:01:11
Mark
Down. Yeah, I kicked the door down. Like when I went to the my first foreclosure, my landlord was there. This is after he tried to make 60 grand selling me a foreclosure that he bought. And so I show up at the auction and it’s just him. And like, maybe one of the usual suspects. There’s like three people that bought everything back in the day.
00:42:01:13 – 00:42:16:17
Mark
And I’m standing at the wall. His son’s my age, so I’m standing next to his son and they’re the options are going. I start I ask him a question, something stupid, probably. He looks over at me and he just goes, What is this, a seminar? You know? So like, yeah, he’s a mentor, but.
00:42:16:19 – 00:42:17:03
Rod
What is.
00:42:17:03 – 00:42:19:11
Mark
This, a seminar? You know what I mean? He doesn’t want me in his turf.
00:42:19:11 – 00:42:20:16
Rod
No, that’s interesting.
00:42:20:16 – 00:42:22:14
Mark
I We still have a good relationship.
00:42:22:14 – 00:42:34:18
Rod
Yeah, Yeah, that’s too bad. Yeah, that’s too bad. I don’t have a scarcity mindset of help people get into the coaching business. Students of mind go. Go be coaches yourself. I’ve helped lots of people with their podcast, but.
00:42:34:20 – 00:42:36:07
Mark
You know, it’s just his personality.
00:42:36:07 – 00:42:52:07
Rod
Yeah, you know, but there are a lot of people that have that scarcity mindset where they’re afraid of losing. And, you know, I’m blessed that I don’t for the most part. And what do you think has been your most your biggest success so far in life now, besides the kids? Yeah, besides the kids heads.
00:42:52:10 – 00:43:14:06
Mark
And, you know, I, I just, I help a lot of people, so And when you help people, you have, like, a really great friendship with them for, like, you know, however long that that help lasts or it usually is 3 to 6 months, something like that. So you have these you have tons of really intense relationships where I become really great friends with people and.
00:43:14:08 – 00:43:16:01
Rod
You don’t you don’t maintain those friendships.
00:43:16:01 – 00:43:21:00
Mark
I try, yeah. When you when you’re up to like thousands of clients. Yeah. Really, really tough.
00:43:21:00 – 00:43:21:22
Rod
Sure.
00:43:21:23 – 00:43:25:19
Mark
So we’ll still do events and we’ll invite everybody. But, you know, ultimately.
00:43:25:21 – 00:43:28:08
Rod
What are you doing? Events events about?
00:43:28:10 – 00:43:40:06
Mark
I’m just like, So the last one that we did was like a dance. We rented a dance hall and then we paid the dancers to come and teach my clients how to dance. Oh. So I said, Hey, do you want to learn how to salsa dance?
00:43:40:08 – 00:43:41:02
Rod
Oh, that’s awesome.
00:43:41:02 – 00:43:43:12
Mark
Just show up here. And then we had a catered and we had drinks.
00:43:43:16 – 00:43:46:14
Rod
Oh, that’s cool. So this is just client and client retention and.
00:43:46:16 – 00:43:53:02
Mark
Well, that’s how I stay friends with. With thousands of people, right? I don’t have enough time to just have a special one.
00:43:53:02 – 00:43:54:08
Rod
On one conversations.
00:43:54:08 – 00:44:00:18
Mark
With people. So that’s that’s kind of how I handle. It’s like you have like a wedding every year, you know, we’re just going around.
00:44:00:20 – 00:44:18:04
Rod
So what words of wisdom? We’ll be wrapping up here soon, but what words of wisdom would you have for aspiring commercial real estate investors that that that that think they want to go do this and, you know, buy apartment complexes and, you know, maybe what direction might you send them?
00:44:18:06 – 00:44:35:12
Mark
I always think that like becoming a realtor and a broker first is kind of an easy way to do it. A lot of people come at it from like wholesale approach. I don’t think that’s the smartest way to get started. If you come in as a realtor and maybe even a commercial realtor and become a broker, you’re going to get all of that experience.
00:44:35:12 – 00:44:54:08
Mark
You’re going to work with people that know what they’re doing, right? If you’re humble, I think that’s how it works, right? So I’ve had a lot of clients that know a lot more than I do, and that’s how I learn So when they come to me and they say, Hey, I’m interested in this property over here, if they give me the privilege of like helping them through that transaction, I use that as a learning opportunity.
00:44:54:08 – 00:45:00:03
Mark
So I would tell you that I learned from other people a lot from my clients. Interesting. Interesting.
00:45:00:07 – 00:45:18:17
Rod
I actually, you know, I’m on the other side of the fence on that particular response. I people ask me, should I get my real estate license to do this business? And I and I and my responses is no, unless you’re going to sell real estate, if you’re going to sell real estate, absolutely. But the license isn’t going to help you with that.
00:45:18:17 – 00:45:40:01
Rod
It’s going to be sales training. But but the the disadvantage with it and I know the advantage is you have access to the MLS, you see deals, but if you’re doing particularly commercial real estate, the MLS doesn’t really help you that much. But but are held to a higher standard. Okay. You’ve got more liability than you would have because of your license.
00:45:40:01 – 00:45:56:22
Rod
Sure. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Okay. So, so you know, and so, you know, but but if you’re going to if you’re going to actually actively sell real estate, for God’s sakes. Yeah. Get your license. If you’re just going to invest and you’re going to do larger stuff, you know, not not residency. Multifamily duplex, triplex, four plex.
00:45:56:22 – 00:46:18:03
Rod
You’re going to go bigger. I would tell you, I don’t think it’ll help. I don’t think it’ll help at all. But definitely if two people are starting and you and you do a lot of smaller stuff too, which definitely helps with that and you need it if you’re buying foreclosures or you’re buying, yeah, you’re buying foreclosures. Typically that’s single family stuff and you need it to check comps and do all those things.
00:46:18:08 – 00:46:37:07
Rod
So in that business model, it’s a must have you know, I will tell you, you know, I bought 2000 houses in my career that I rented long term. These weren’t flippers or wholesalers, and I always had a brokerage. Now, there were times, you know, I let my brokerage go when I would hire an old broker to qualify my business and I would get all the commissions.
00:46:37:07 – 00:46:57:18
Rod
So when I bought this house here, I had a brokerage and I made an $80,000 commission from the broker. And I said, You know, anything I buy or sell, I get the commission on. You know, I paid him 300 bucks a month for that privilege. And so that’s kind of a unique strategy. You can ping me offline if you want to hear more about that, but the property management business can be pretty litigious.
00:46:57:18 – 00:47:07:19
Rod
Really. Owning real estate can be pretty frickin litigious. Okay. I mean, you own enough real estate, you’re walking around with a bull’s eye on your forehead. So talk about how you mitigate that.
00:47:07:21 – 00:47:27:16
Mark
Yeah. So there’s your insurance agents going to try to sell you the world. Right? But you got to be able to operate. And if you have too much insurance, you can’t operate. You can’t compete in the marketplace. Right. A lot of times you’re competing against operators that aren’t covered very well. And unfortunately, the other people, they’re not vetting their operator well.
00:47:27:16 – 00:47:32:23
Mark
So they don’t they just, you know, so I don’t really know what I need to know. So I’m just assuming they’re doing their job.
00:47:32:23 – 00:47:37:17
Rod
So what kind of insurance would you would you recommend and for what? For what business specifically?
00:47:37:17 – 00:47:58:04
Mark
Yeah. So I want to make sure because I’m also an owner, Right? So I look at this thing from all ways that the owners are covered no matter what. And so a lot of things can happen and it can fall on the owner. If I don’t do my job as a property manager and a lot of property managers, I would tell you are not going through and doing this diligently.
00:47:58:04 – 00:47:59:21
Mark
Right, because it’s a lot of.
00:47:59:23 – 00:48:01:13
Rod
So what are they what are you doing? Right.
00:48:01:14 – 00:48:20:07
Mark
So you’re going to have obviously you’re going have your own go policy, your general liability, you’re going to have workers comp for your people. But what you’re going to do is you’re going to hire subcontractors, right? So you’ve got to get the subcontractors certs. Before I let anybody step on one of my client’s properties, they have to name us as additional insured.
00:48:20:11 – 00:48:35:15
Mark
They have to name my client as additional insured. You know, we have to have the binder on file. They have to sign a master service agreement that’s going to go through and sign off on what limits that they have to have. I’m going to send that master service agreement to my insurance carrier and I’m going to have a check it.
00:48:35:15 – 00:48:43:09
Mark
I’m going to have them check the policy against the service agreement and make sure that they’re in compliance with Otto with everything we’ve got.
00:48:43:11 – 00:49:03:04
Rod
And that’s a big deal. I tell you why that’s a big deal. You know, let’s say, you know, you own a property and you have somebody do some roof repair, you get somebody out of Craigslist or frickin whatever and have do some roof repair and they happen to fall off the roof. Even if you have insurance, you’re liable for that regardless.
00:49:03:04 – 00:49:09:03
Rod
And and if if in some time, I mean, if they can get really injured, it can surpass your insurance.
00:49:09:03 – 00:49:10:10
Mark
It flows upstream to the owner.
00:49:10:12 – 00:49:35:19
Rod
And. Well, that as a property manager. Absolutely. If you hire somebody and you know in the world that I live in, which is 100 plus units for the most part, those commercial property management companies, they don’t let anybody go in without what you just described. Just so you know, in in the world of the smaller and this is where it’s a big deal in these, you know, smaller property management companies where it’s a broker that just decided to do it on the side of it’s kind of what you did really, and built it into something big.
00:49:35:21 – 00:49:46:18
Rod
But but there’s a lot of that and they don’t dot the I’s and cross the T’s. And if they bring someone in and they don’t have that work comp coverage, it you’re absolutely liable for it.
00:49:46:18 – 00:50:04:04
Mark
It’s beyond just worker’s comp rate because if you say a brick falls on somebody, right, they’re going to sue, right? The attorney is going to say, okay, worker’s comp, I don’t really want to go after that. It’s going to take a long time. They’re going to go for the labor law coverage and that flows all the way back upstream to the owner.
00:50:04:06 – 00:50:14:02
Mark
And it could be millions of dollars. So if you don’t have that additional policy on top of your worker’s comp, you’re still liable. Right? So there’s since y you really have to have a good insurance person.
00:50:14:04 – 00:50:38:18
Rod
A good grown insurance person, good advice. And it’s geographically driven as well, because the thing you just described, that writer that’s not in every state, right? That’s can tell you that’s New York thing. But but you need to check your insurance coverages. You every property is in its own LLC so you own the rotten apple theory. If something does surpass the insurance limits, you definitely have general liability that covers everything as well.
00:50:38:20 – 00:51:09:18
Rod
And then you just make sure nobody touches your property unless there unless they’re licensed and insured, period. It’s not worth it not to. I don’t care what you can save having somebody off the street do something because there are professionals as well that that get injured professional injury. Yeah self-injury people okay And they’re just like in the in the leasing business they’re professional litigators that will go out and try to trip you up for discrimination.
00:51:09:18 – 00:51:29:09
Rod
Just type discriminatory things. They things you may not realize that that are discrimination like sexual orientation is one familial status. There’s all these things that you may not be aware of, and they’re professional litigators that will try to trip you up and that’s the same thing with people that, you know, jobbers that are working on on property. So you got to be very, very careful with that.
00:51:29:09 – 00:51:30:20
Rod
That’s I’m really glad you brought that up.
00:51:30:20 – 00:51:49:09
Mark
Some tenants just tried to play the system and sue everybody. Right. So what is a big one for us? Because most of our housing stock was built at the turn of the century. Right. Even the big stuff. Right. And so we’ve got to ensure that, like we’ve got the original lead disclosure, we’ve got it signed by the owner, we’ve got it signed by the seller.
00:51:49:12 – 00:51:50:07
Rod
And the tenant.
00:51:50:07 – 00:51:50:18
Mark
And we’ve got.
00:51:50:18 – 00:51:51:06
Rod
Tenants got to.
00:51:51:06 – 00:51:56:21
Mark
Sign it. You got it signed by the tenant. And then if you’re, you know, you’re doing close, you’re having people do work.
00:51:56:21 – 00:51:58:00
Rod
And what’s the I’m sorry.
00:51:58:01 – 00:52:13:13
Mark
What was a certificate of occupancy. Gotcha. Every 4 to 6 years, the city comes through and they respect inspectorate. So they swab the window. Let’s say it was clear six years ago. Now all of a sudden, a little bit of paint flakes and they got they got hot test. Now you got to go back through and amend all your LED addendums.
00:52:13:14 – 00:52:14:00
Rod
Oh, good.
00:52:14:00 – 00:52:15:19
Mark
Lord. Right. It’s the amount of.
00:52:15:19 – 00:52:35:02
Rod
Paper, by the way, that’s a New York thing as well. Just this is why I do not invest in New York or any other blue state for that matter. Not political. It’s just life is do frickin short. Yeah, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ve not heard of these. These. These symbols that you just described. Certificate of Certificate of occupancy.
00:52:35:02 – 00:52:54:13
Rod
Yes. Yes. When a property sells or turns over sometimes, but not just because I’ve never heard of that. Wow. Yeah, that’s. That’s. That’s wild. Well, are there any books that have helped you on your journey that it doesn’t just have to be real estate or business, just any books that you might suggest that from your library that you enjoy?
00:52:54:15 – 00:53:05:15
Mark
I love The Fountainhead. If people haven’t had not heard of it. Oh, if you haven’t read it, you got to read it. Okay, Howard Roark is the main character. But there’s also, you know, there’s five, five main characters that it goes through and it’s.
00:53:05:16 – 00:53:07:16
Rod
Is this just a pleasure reader? Is there is there.
00:53:07:21 – 00:53:18:18
Mark
I mean, he’s an architect. I mean, it’s a pleasure to read, but it pertains to life and it pertains to like anybody that reads it that is into real estate is going to freaking love the book.
00:53:18:18 – 00:53:29:03
Rod
Oh, no kidding. Fountainhead okay, I’ll definitely remember that. Thank you. Well, listen, brother, this has been a lot of fun. I’m grateful for you to come down. It’s been a treat to meet you and I hope.
00:53:29:03 – 00:53:33:02
Mark
You brought as much energy as you bring when you go on people’s pockets. I’ll thank you when I listen to you.
00:53:33:07 – 00:53:35:11
Rod
You suffered through me on a podcast, but it’s great.
00:53:35:11 – 00:53:38:11
Mark
I love it. I’m like, How does he have so much energy? It’s it’s awesome.
00:53:38:12 – 00:53:43:18
Rod
Drugs. Drugs. So that’s it. Well, this is a pleasure, brother. I appreciate you coming down here.
