Ep #155 – Linda Liberatore – How to Be the Best Landlord You Can Be

Here’s some of what you will learn:

    • How morning rituals are an important exercise for your success.
    • How invoicing your tenants can be effective in collecting rent.
    • Why people are choosing ACH (Automated Clearing House) to pay their rent.
    • Different strategies to collect rent from tenants.
    • How to mitigate problem tenants from the beginning.
    • Why sitting down with the tenant during the lease signing and explaining to them what they can expect from you and what you expect from them is important.
    • If you can’t sit down with the tenant, record a video with everything you would say to them if you were with them in person.
    • By communicating with the tenant in the beginning, this causes less problem tenants.
    • How reduce turnover on a unit by putting incentives in the lease.
    • Why it’s important to talk to the police department, assessor’s office, building department, planning, and anyone else in the county.
    • Be careful of REIA groups that bring in gurus that try to sell you stuff.
    • Try to find out who spoke at the previous REIA meetings to find out what kind of group that is.
    • If there is not a group in your area, then there are benefits to make one.
    • Creative strategies to market.
    • A social media presence can help find tenants for your property.
    • Why people like to see your property in construction on social media.
    • Why it’s important to collect as many positive reviews as possible.
    • What you should do when you see a negative review.
    • Book Recommendation : My Landlord Helper: Keys to Managing Your Real Estate Investments, Achieving Explosive Growth and Saving Money – By Linda Liberatore
    • Book Recommendation : Daily Inspirations to Achieve Your Real Estate Investment Goals: Begin Each Morning Focused on Your Real Estate Investment and Management Goals – By Linda Liberatore


Full Transcript Below:

Ep #155 How to Be the Best Landlord You Can Be – Rod Khleif and Linda Liberatore

Welcome. This is the Lifetime Cash Flow Through Real Estate Investing Podcast. This is where you’ll learn strategies to help you achieve lifetime financial freedom through real estate investment. Your host, Rod Khleif, has owned over 2,000 homes and apartments. And he brings experts in all aspects of real estate investment and management on to the show. Now, here’s your host, Rod Khleif.

Rod Khleif:                Welcome to another edition of How to Build Lifetime Cash Flow Through Real Estate Investing. I’m Rod Khleif and I’m thrilled you’re here. You’re gonna get a big kick out of the dynamic lady that we’re interviewing today.

Her name is Linda Liberatore and she is a best selling author of a couple of very interesting books that relate to what we do here on the show. The first one is Daily Inspirations to Achieve For Your Real Estate Investment Goals, and the other one is The Keys to Managing Your Real Estate.

Now she’s the founder and president of My Landlord Helper, which is kind of a very interesting unique virtual assistant solution for do-it-yourself real estate investors. And we’re very glad to have her on the show. How you doing Linda?

Linda Liberatore:    Oh, I’m good. Thank you so much. You provide such a great service to your audience. I just think it’s great that there are people out there willing to give the time like you are, to educate people. There’s too many gurus on the street, and it’s nice to get a solid education from someone like yourself.

Rod Khleif:                Well, that’s very kind of you to say that and I will slip you the 20 after we’re done.

Linda Liberatore:    [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                Thank you. So tell us a little bit about your background. How you got in this business? I know you’re very active up in Lake County. Is that Chicagoland?

Linda Liberatore:    Just outside of Chicago. We’re just outside of the Chicago area. I’m actually very involved.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    I volunteer for a lot of different real estate investment groups, affordable housing, even some incubator in the area. So like yourself, I guess I’d love to be able to help people that are just getting started. There’s just so many, let’s say, late-night programs that make everything look like it’s just that easy, and there’s certainly a lot of money to be, I’ll call it won or lost at that table, and you kind of wanna make sure that people understand that.

So getting out there and volunteering in those real estate investment groups where you have real, I’ll call it real landlords. We often say that we have the real landlords in there that are out there buying the multi families, and they understand.

Kinda we’re putting together a panel, for example, in one of our groups, for this December. We’re reaching out to all, some of the oldest members, because they’ve seen the cycles that are out there in real estate. We think it’s really beneficial for our newer members that are just starting to buy properties to kinda understand how they have to hunker down and handle different cycles.

Rod Khleif:                Oh yeah, there are a lot of young guys that I talk to regularly, and women as well, that have not been through one of the cycles. Anybody that listens to this podcast knows that I got my rear end handed to me in 2008. I had a big seminar.

Yeah, there are a lot of people that are going in not realizing that at some point the music’s gonna stop and you don’t want to be the last person sitting down in the chair or not have a chair to sit in. No, that’s awesome. Let’s talk about your background. How’d you get into the business? And then let’s dig into those books.

Linda Liberatore:    Okay. It’s a little bit of a combination, I was doing technology training for a number of years for enterprise size kind of software, a lot of database management. And you know kind life takes you on certain paths, and at the same time I was working with a few real estate investors, helping them with finding technology solutions.

This is back in the day where it would have been a lot more difficult, if you would, to find those CD-ROMs, I’m talking.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    So not everybody can relate to that. But that was a common way to install software. About the same time, I was doing this training and helping these people, I had this opportunity to go out to a company that was based out in New York. They had a web-based application that helps private schools collect tuition. So kind of that…

Rod Khleif:                Light bulb.

Linda Liberatore:    Light bulb moment. Yeah, exactly, and I just thought to myself, “Wow, that would be really helpful for landlords to be able to electronically get the rent, and get rent on time, and get those pre and post reminders.

Something that today I guess, I will say, we all take for granted. But even back then, what was especially difficult, and I’m sure you could attest to this, is people were hesitant to give that out. I never… Because I even have banking experience prior to that so I never understood why they were hesitant because what you’re asking for on an ACH form is no different than if I hand you my personal check.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    But people were still… Right. And we’re now you send them anything via DocuSign and it’s like boom, boom, boom, and you get it right back. We’re a different society than and we even were eight-nine years ago but you just saw the advantage to offering small landlords that are just starting, similar to your audience, where they’re trying to build that portfolio. So they’re looking for options and platforms to get them there.

It’s just been really wonderful, ‘cause you’re really shaping lives by volunteering through all these different things you’re really seeing, the things people share.

Rod Khleif:                No question. Talk to us about your Daily Inspirations For Real Estate Investors. Let’s go through some of those if you don’t mind.

Linda Liberatore:    Sure. Well I don’t have it in front of me so we will… [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    I could kinda give you a little bit of background. At that point, when I decided to write that, it was probably… I don’t know, I guess I’ll say we had the business open maybe like five years. And you and I were chatting… First of all, which I probably was a big morning person anyway, and then a routine person. I definitely learned by having a routine.

I had my morning routine going, and it was, again, kind of that light bulb moment like, “Wouldn’t it be helpful for a small landlord to take, let say, a moment each day to just the way, you have let’s say, your moment of gratitude, and to read something…

It’s, literally, if you look at the page it’s probably a paragraph. It’s a passage is the way that I’d word it, per day, about something to think about with real estate investing. So maybe it’s about, what to look for when you’re screening a tenant. Maybe the next page is, what to get into if you’re in multi-family building, how you’re handling communications, how are you getting out of blast if there’s weather issues related to, I don’t know, public transportation that day.

So each day has a little something to think about as it relates to investing. So it just kinda help the brain, start the day with a little thought about investing in real estate.

Rod Khleif:                Okay. Okay. So that’s the real estate investment goals…

Linda Liberatore:    And it does have a quote. I should mention that too. Always a quote, I always like to start with a quote each day too.

Rod Khleif:                Okay. So it’s like, what is it? Like a 30-day…

Linda Liberatore:    Oh, I’m laughing… [chuckles] that’s one of my jokes. You must have heard that joke before.

Rod Khleif:                No.

Linda Liberatore:    No. It’s actually 365 days.

Rod Khleif:                Wow.

Linda Liberatore:    It should be 30 days, ‘cause I wasn’t thinking clearly when I took on this project. It was like after I got done, I thought, “Why didn’t I do 30 days?”

Rod Khleif:                Wow, 365. Holy cow. You’ve got a quote everyday, you’ve got a little inspirational piece about real estate.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                I’m anxious to see that. I love it. I love where your mind’s at with that.  We talked briefly before we started recording about your morning ritual and so this is basically a piece of that. Like Hal Elrod, The Miracle Morning, that’s a book we give to my coaching clients and it’s all about getting up early, as early as you can…

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                Exercise, or no, actually, first you reflect and then you visualize. Maybe look at your vision board. Visualize a little bit. Visualize your goals as if you already have them. Be grateful for what you already have in your life, and then journaling. Do a little bit of journaling.

Linda Liberatore:    Journal, a little bit of journaling everyday. Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                Right. And then read one of Linda’s fantastic quotes…

Linda Liberatore:    [chuckles] Exactly.

Rod Khleif:                In her daily inspiration book, and then put on the sneakers and go out and sweat.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. Yeah. I’m really, honestly Rod, I can tell you, I’m so committed to that. Like I think that changes people’s life, to start out your day the right way, in that positive way. There’s so many things are gonna hit you as it is. If you could at least, to me it’s like kinda eating breakfast. Right? Just gotta start out with a foundation.

Rod Khleif:                No. No question. Guys, those of you listening, I highly recommend, Hal’s book, The Miracle Morning, or doing something like that. We’ve talked about morning rituals on the show before.

Mine used to be… I’m actually doing more like Hal’s now. Mine used to be, I just do what I just said, I meditate, literally, for five minutes. Gratitude first, and then for what I already have, and then gratitude for what I want. Then just a declaration that it’s gonna be a great day.

But now, I’ve really gotten up earlier, and I’m exercising in the morning. I used to just do it in the afternoon, and it has really made a big difference. Those of you that aren’t doing that, if you really want the success, and I know you do if you’re listening to the show; you’ve got the energy to achieve that success. You’re gonna get that energy from the heat from eating well and from the exercise in the morning, and from starting your day off right.

Linda Liberatore:    If I could add to that, Rod, I think one of the most inspirational things is, if they can afford a gym, one of the things that I’ve found really most amazing is when you’re at home and you’re going through this routines, you kind of feel like you’re taking on the world…


Linda Liberatore:    When you go to a gym and you get there at 4:00 a.m., and the parking lot is full and you’re trying to find a spot, it’s a light bulb moment to say, “Hey, there’s a lot of people living this lifestyle.” I think it gives you, just brings you back so much energy.

Rod Khleif:                Well, I can’t do four o’clock but…

Linda Liberatore:    [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                There’s a limit to this enthusiasm, and I’m sorry to throw a bucket of cold water on that but I will never see four o’clock in the morning.

Linda Liberatore:    No. No… Okay, well you could adjust it. It could be 5:30-6:00, we’ll let you, but you can’t sleep until 7:00. For sure you can’t. [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                Alright. If you say so.

Linda Liberatore:    Okay.

Rod Khleif:                Alright. Let’s talk about The Keys to Managing Your Real Estate. Tell us about that book.

Linda Liberatore:    That book is really kinda more of a nuts and bolts of what somebody has to do to manage those multi-families.

Rod Khleif:                Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    Let’s say, in your particular case, they’re out there. They’re getting ready to sign an agreement on a multi-family, just what is it you’re gonna need to know. Where am I gonna find a lease? Where do you suggest like, so it goes through things like building the team, the real estate investment groups you can get involved in, how to vet out a contractor, and of course, part of it being, collecting the payments.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    Sometimes that’s a difficult… Everybody has a different personality and so some people are more or less comfortable with that. And they need to realize that in the game of real estate, or any time you open a business, that’s part of it. I could be passionate about selling socks, but if you aren’t gonna collect the money for those… So with rents, I think it’s super important that they understand that the game could be won or lost at that table.

So we were talking a little bit about certain areas you want; invoices, certain areas you need ACH, other areas Chase QuickPay…

Rod Khleif:                Yeah, so what she’s talking about guys is, in your rent collection, one of the strategies, particularly if you’re in the C minus, C to D area… C to D Pro Class properties; invoices, invoicing your tenants on monthly basis can be very, very effective in improving your collections.Now, we used to do it when I had that class of properties, which I do not recommend D properties anymore. But that’s another conversation. Invoicing is very, very helpful.

ACH, where do you see the ACH being the most useful? For everybody else or…?

Linda Liberatore:    I would say it’s becoming kind of mainstream now.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    As I’ve said, it was kinda difficult years ago, now, people just want the convenience. Even in those C-class properties, it is really more, if they have a checking account.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    There’s certain areas, certain communities that don’t necessarily believe in banking. Well then you’re gonna be a money order and in the mail. But if they’re in banking, they’re probably, if they get hit with a late fee just once, or slapped with a late fee, then they say, “What is it that you offer that I could just call and get that taken out of my account?” It becomes that convenience people are looking for.

Rod Khleif:                Sure. Sure.

Linda Liberatore:    They could set that up through their bank, Rod.  Any bank offers that. You just ask for their treasury management… I shouldn’t say any bank, most may… Sells that, majority…

Rod Khleif:                I can’t imagine any banks today that don’t do it.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                Now, you guys realize what ACH is, I’m sure. It’s basically automatic withdrawals out of your checking account. Really, to be successful in the landlording, particularly again, in the C and under properties, believe it or not, we even take debit cards and credit cards in my property management company, which there’s a cost associated with, but it really enhances our collection.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. It’s better than the cost of your staff having to chase it down, and go to the legal notices, etcetera. It’s a cost to doing business that certainly compensates for itself.  I don’t know if you’re familiar with that PayNearMe. I have landlords that love that of the…

Rod Khleif:                Now, what is it?  Could you expand on that? I don’t know what that is.

Linda Liberatore:    Okay. It’s called, PayNearMe and it’s a company that is affiliated and associated with like Dollar Tree, and again, it’s in different parts of the country, different… Sorry, I said Dollar Tree like a hardware, and even like 7/11s.

Rod Khleif:                Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    What it does is allow that certain, again, that a little bit of tougher demographics that don’t have bank accounts, they just bring the cash into those places. And you’ve paid them, you’ve set up an account, and they could bring it to any of those locations. All they have to do is give it that account number, and it gets deposited to your account. It’s a nice convenience.

Rod Khleif:                Sure. It’s almost like wiring the money but…

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:               But it’s convenient because there are merchants that are involved with it.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                Okay. Very interesting.

Linda Liberatore:    It’s a nice offering for certain areas. It’s very helpful.

Rod Khleif:                What else besides collections do you speak about in that Keys To Managing Your Real Estate book?

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. We talk a little bit about the legal notices that go with it. That’s another kinda frightening area for the new landlord that they wanna realize that they at least want to develop a sense of comfort first, so that it doesn’t blindside them.

You don’t want your tenant knowing more than you do about the legal process.

Rod Khleif:                And believe me, there are some very professional tenants out there that know how to work the system. I mean… And they’re scary efficient at doing it as well.

Linda Liberatore:    Exactly.

Rod Khleif:                So for you newbies, be forewarned. Yeah. Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. And what we say, Rod, in those cases is, there’s little things that people don’t realize. Like for instance, if you’re lease has a five-day grace period. And then you’re gonna…

Rod Khleif:                Right… As most do.

Linda Liberatore:    Most do. Well we see that vary, in some areas of the country, more or less. But the thing is the legal notice, and again, I’m gonna use the generality. Most parts of the country, ‘cause there’s always exceptions with municipalities and counties, you can deliver that notice on the second day of the month.
Now from an efficiency standpoint, if I’m looking at a large building, I’m not looking to spend the money, I’m getting those out right away, if truly the majority of the building’s gonna pay on the fifth.

Rod Khleif:                Yeah.  Talking about late payment notices.

Linda Liberatore:    Right. Exactly.

Rod Khleif:                Because rent is due on the first, late on the second, and then typically a late charge gets assessed… What? The fifth…

Linda Liberatore:    The sixth…

Rod Khleif:                Sixth. Yeah, the sixth…

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. Depending.  It varies. But if you have like a problem tenant, and this is something a lot of people have thanked us for sharing this. Is let’s say you’ve kinda known things have been going bad but you’re getting the money, but it’s still going bad…

Rod Khleif:                It’s a constant struggle.

Linda Liberatore:    Right. So on a case like that, what we say is the new landlord, especially should feel very comfortable, first off, having that list of charitable organizations as part of their lease packet when they moved in. So that’s like a non-issue because we talk about it while we’re friendly. Right?

When you first start dating, everything’s good, so bring all these up and you say we got this little packet in the event of emergency, right, crack the glass. So here’s the list of people that you can go to.

Rod Khleif:                That’s a great idea. In your intro, lease signing, you hand them a list of people they can go to if they have a problem. Their churches, and other relief organizations that we get checks from all the time when people are having a tough time. What a great idea love it.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. And bringing it up in that nice banter.

Rod Khleif:                Sure.

Linda Liberatore:    So now, when I have somebody that really has been a problem, now, we may have to nip it in the bud because in our area of the country, in Chicago, we don’t want these things to surface in December. Right.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    If it’s gonna surface, we’re looking for it to surface no later than probably, August. It’s probably the best, we don’t wanna have a flip anytime after that, or turn-over I mean.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    So anyway, long story short, I would pull that document out on the second day, I’d get your handyman put your list of charitable organizations with the legal document, and you’re delivering it now, more as a gift…

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    And you’re not trying to be punitive, you’re saying, “Hey, you need help? And if you are truly in the bad shape your saying you are, then why don’t you take this legal notice get over to that organization and jump on it.”

Rod Khleif:                I love it.

Linda Liberatore:    ‘Cause otherwise, the landlord loses, as you know, one month, two months worth of rent…

Rod Khleif:                Turnover is the highest expense that you when you’re renting properties. I will tell you that what I like about what you just said is it takes some of the sting out of an eviction notice, or late pay notice by offering something with it. That’s a very good strategy, giving them the list of potential relief organizations with the late pay noticed.

I wanna interject one other thing that’s also very, very helpful. Guys, when you’re first doing a lease up, it is very, very important not just to put the lease in front of them and have them sign it. It’s very, very important to actually really talk about it. Verbally talk about and exchange, back and forth, what you’re requiring of them and what they can require of you. I mean, what they can expect. I’m sorry. What you’re expecting of them and what they can expect of you.

For example, “Mr and Mrs Smith, you can expect that if you have an issue with the plumbing or electrical, or a maintenance item, we’re gonna get right on it, and were gonna call you afterwards to make sure you’re happy with what we did. But also, we have bills to pay, and if you’re late, unfortunately on the second, you’re gonna get a late notice, and on the sixth, we’re gonna start an eviction. And that’s just… I don’t want there to be any surprises. We’d love to have you stay, but I just want you to know that’s how we operate.”

Guys having that conversation is so critical when you’re leasing up a property because don’t be afraid of the conversation in fact take that opportunity to spend 15 minutes talking about that with them.


Rod Khleif:                It really helps. They’re gonna think twice before they go buy a TV and not pay their rent, or buy Christmas presents and not pay their rent. Because the landlord told them what was gonna happen if they didn’t pay and then it’s no surprise.

Linda Liberatore:    Oh, Rod, I couldn’t agree more, what an awesome service just explain that to them.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    That is the time to do it. Do it during… Don’t just give them the lease without a conversation.

Rod Khleif:                Don’t rush through it. Don’t rush through it.

Linda Liberatore:    Right. Absolutely.

Rod Khleif:                That’s an opportunity to minimize turnover. It’s an opportunity to minimize collection issues. It’s an opportunity to tell them how to contact you, and what to expect. And really, what you think might be frivolous repair. Don’t bother us if the knob is off the bottom of the blind cord, or something ridiculous.

But it’s really important to communicate that verbally. That’s, I guess, if I impart anything on you guys, use that opportunity to verbally tell them this.

Linda Liberatore:    Rod, in certain areas, kinda of the different metropolitan areas, let’s put it that way, not areas of the country, different demographics; so much gets signed nowadays via DocuSign. That what were suggesting in those particular areas is take the time just like we are right now, whether it be Zoom, whether it be a YouTube video, record something, so that in addition to that electronic signing they got to see you in person just like you’re sitting here with me today.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    And maybe you’re conversing just as a lecture style or maybe you’re conversing with somebody in the office but you record that and ask them to view that as well. Keep it brief, but hit those key points. If they…

Rod Khleif:                Oh, I see, I see. Actually record something that they watch and it’s not really interaction with them. It’s an audiovisual way to communicate versus just communicating in writing.

Linda Liberatore:    Exactly.

Rod Khleif:                I love it.

Linda Liberatore:    It would be your last choice like you said. Ideally, number one would be your idea. I wanna get them in. I wanna spend 15 minutes.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    If in the different, again, we have people on… I’m sure you’re area in the country too, in some parts of the City of Chicago, they’re moving out on the 31st at 11 o’clock and the next guy’s coming in at 1:00 a.m.

Rod Khleif:                Oh. Yeah. Right.

Linda Liberatore:    Just depends on how metropolitan it is, and what’s going on, so sometimes…

Rod Khleif:                Sure and they’re millennials, so they’re used to storing everything on their PDA.

Linda Liberatore:    Yes.

Rod Khleif:                And by the way guys, we’re recording this on Zoom to put on YouTube, you’re listening to it on the podcast. That’s why we’re actually looking at each other right now, but those of you listening, you can always go to my YouTube channel. That’s a way, if you actually wanna watch…

Linda Liberatore:    Yes…

Rod Khleif:                And look at my ugly mug.

Linda Liberatore:    [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                You have that ability… Great idea. Love, recording it as well, and sending them a little video. Geez, it can be with, literally, with your webcam.

Linda Liberatore:    Right.

Rod Khleif:                Just say, “I just wanna explain a few things in the lease to you.” It can be generic so could just do it one time. Now, ideally, I would recommend you do it one on one with them.

Linda Liberatore:    Absolutely.

Rod Khleif:                Either on the phone or in person, if you can, because it’s just more powerful. They hear your sincerity, and you tell them, “Listen, I’ve got bills to pay like anybody else, and if I don’t collect the rent, I can’t pay my mortgage. So you have to understand that this is gonna happen on the sixth of the month.”

Linda Liberatore:    Right.

Rod Khleif:                And there’s no hard feelings, it’s just…

Linda Liberatore:    No.

Rod Khleif:                That way, they’re not gonna try to test you either. Okay. They’re not gonna try to push you and give you a sob story, or whatever. You’re gonna say, you can remind them, “Remember when we talked about this? I have a mortgage payment to make.” It’s very, very helpful, guys. This may sound like overkill, or whatever but trust me, it’s not. It should be something you do every single time. It really is that important.

Linda Liberatore:    I absolutely agree, Rod.  Absolutely. In fact, I just talked to somebody the other day like 30 years in the business, and that’s what he said, “If I could talk to my younger self like kind of discount this and think, well I know how to collect money, until your one and one in that awkward situation and you wish you can refer back to that conversation that you didn’t have with them.

Rod Khleif:                Right. Again, I don’t wanna beat a dead horse here but that will forestall a lot of those conversations because they’re not gonna forget if you put some emphasis on it, and you do it a nice way. But say, unfortunately, when this happens it’s painful and people try to talk to us, but you need to understand that we’ve got bills…

Anyway I’m beating at a dead horse.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                So what else is in the book? What else do you tell about?

Linda Liberatore:    Another area, I think, a new landlord could watch for as a potential, I would say, protect themselves with adding things in some type of handbook regulations. Too often, they get like a kind of a generic lease, which is fine, ‘cause everybody’s kind of afraid. Right? It’s a legal instrumental.

Rod Khleif:                Sure.

Linda Liberatore:    They kinda get… So one of the things we see becoming so come and so helpful is, and I guess it’s from years of experience and those bad moments, that you don’t forget is they kind of put together this list of either, they call it their addendum, their house rules, their policies, their procedures.

In the past, quite often, it would just be a list of utilities, and the dry cleaner, and stuff like that.

Rod Khleif:                Sure. Resources maybe and things of that nature..

Linda Liberatore:    Yes.

Rod Khleif:                Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    Now we’re seeing more and more people adding coverage, if you will. Kinda the way our insurance has changed. So you’re seeing like, one of the common ones we see is the move outs we’re just talking about. I think you said it, so importantly, there’s money to be lost there, you can’t lose that. So why…

Rod Khleif:                Turnovers. Turnovers.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                Turnovers is the biggest expense you can have as a landlord. Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    Even more so if you let that time elapse with the vacancy.

Rod Khleif:                Oh, yeah.

Linda Liberatore:    In these metropolitan areas that my sharp landlords, they’ve got it down. It’s happening at midnight, and next morning is the next move in. In order to really facilitate that, you have to make sure you’ve covered yourself in the lease. Either the handbook, in the lease itself, so the lease itself, you may say, “Move out time, no later than 5:00 p.m. on the 31st.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    Again, check with your local laws. Generally though, that is allowed, to add a time to it. Then when it comes to the regulations, another one, we see too many times, when they didn’t protect themselves, is the showings.  In order for me to lease it, I’ve gotta be able to get in and show that unit.

Rod Khleif:                Sure. While it’s still occupied by your previous tenant, right.

Linda Liberatore:    Yes. And in a multi-family, you can add incentives in there. You could say, We’ll have this $100 gift card if we are able to successfully rent out your unit within X amount of days or whatever.

Rod Khleif:                I like it. I like it. I like it. So if you have an incentive right there in the lease or you put it in that handbook you’re describing. They have a spiff if they help you rent it. They keep it clean, and showing well… No. I like that.

Linda Liberatore:    Exactly.

Rod Khleif:                I haven’t heard that one before. That’s very clever.

Linda Liberatore:    We see some that… We just went through one where a man was particularly difficult, he said there was death in the family, this that, and he gave like 10 reasons. And this what was listed with a real estate agent. It was very difficult for them to get in there and show it.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    Sometimes they have punitive, now some people kind of the carrot or the stick.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    But have something to cover yourself if you need to show those units. Multi-family, sometimes, you have flexibility ‘cause you have other people. But if you don’t have like one good tenant that is your go to back up, it becomes very difficult when that tenant is not allowing you accessibility.

Rod Khleif:                Right. If you don’t have that tenant allow you to show their unit that’s comparable to the unit they’re interested in… Yeah. Absolutely. I love the incentive idea. Guys, don’t be afraid to be punitive either. In fact, I should probably do a session on my lease. I wrote a lease that was…

Linda Liberatore:    [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                I mean, it was onerous, it was so tight, and for example, if they weren’t there for a showing they got charged.  I need to pull it out. There was so much stuff in there that I held them accountable. It might have been a little too much. I even… But the point is, you can do with a carrot or the stick. I love that. I love the suggestion of the carrot. I mean, that’s absolutely a great solution.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah, and I’d love to go back to what you just said though, Rod. I think this is so true. Yeah, we see them coming in from, again different areas of the country, but what is it? It’s not so much the errors of the country its what experience that they’ve been through.

So Rod’s got a bigger and bigger list of issues because I’m sure this happened and you said, “Okay, that’s not gonna happen to me again, so I’m gonna add that to the lease.”

Rod Khleif:                Yeah.

Linda Liberatore:    That’s not gonna happen to me again, so I’m gonna add that to the lease.

Rod Khleif:                No question. There’s so many little things that you don’t think about… I really am gonna pull that lease out and…

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah, I bet that’s…

Rod Khleif:                Share it with my audience. There’s a lot of good stuff in there. I’ll tell you, it makes sense to spend the time and think through ways that you can incentivize people to do the things that you want done, and I love your idea of the gift card.

Sometimes, you get a tough tenant and you pay them to leave.

Linda Liberatore:    Yes. Yes.

Rod Khleif:                I mean, to get them out… No, I like it. What else do you talk about?

Linda Liberatore:    The next, I would say, is that networking. I kind of brushed over it at the beginning. You’re a guy like myself that you get out there, right? You meet people, and you learn from people. I think too many times, someone getting started with a multi-family, they say, “Well I’ve got my team. I’ve got my real estate agent and my banker, my accountant. And they don’t realize that there’s so much more.

Rod Khleif:                Sure.

Linda Liberatore:    So by getting into the right, the right real estate investment group, not just… I watch the Fix and Flip Show on TV.

Rod Khleif:                Oh, no. God no.

Linda Liberatore:    It’s a different thing than getting out into the groups, hearing the real stories…


Linda Liberatore:    You’d be surprised, like in some of ours; we have the Sheriff’s Department out there…

Rod Khleif:                Oh, I love it.

Linda Liberatore:    Well does it help to know somebody in the Sheriff’s Department? When you’re not face to face with them are you over attentive? So you build strong relationships with… We have the real estate taxes, which as we all know that goes up, up, up, no matter what area. Right?

They come in and they teach people how to… What’s the word for that? Appeal. Appeal their real estate taxes…

Rod Khleif:                Appeal their assessment? Yeah.

Linda Liberatore:    And you know in multi-family, that’s huge. You wanna stay right on top of that big money to [overlap talk]

Rod Khleif:                It’s the second biggest expense, frankly.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                So no, that’s awesome that you bring people in like that.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. Those are valuable resources for them, in that we don’t care if they use that person, the point is get that education, get your wheels thinking about…

Rod Khleif:                Yeah.

Linda Liberatore:    Those are more relationships.

Rod Khleif:                No, guys, those of you considering buying a property part of your due diligence… Now, some of you may be in areas that you don’t have groups that are as well organized as you’ve got there in Lake County in Chicago. But if you’re gonna buy a property, you better have gone and talked to the Police Department.

Linda Liberatore:    Yes.

Rod Khleif:                You wanna find out what’s going on in that block, what’s going on with that property. You’re gonna want to go and talk to the Assessor’s Office; find out what’s gonna happen with the taxes after you buy. I recommend you go talk to the Building Department find out if there have been any historical violations. Talk to Planning; is there a sewer line going in that you’re gonna have to pay for.

There’s a lot of things like this that you absolutely wanna do when you’re in the due diligence process. Even on a four-plex, or a duplex, or something. This may sound like overkill but if you really wanna find out what’s going on, you can learn a lot by going to the county and talking to these different offices. Talk to Zoning; see if there’s a zoning change coming that might positively or negatively impact your property.

That’s a good way to spend an afternoon, if you’re gonna take down a property. I love what you’re doing inside of your networking. So let’s talk about networking some more. For those of my listeners that may be haven’t gone to a real estate investor club meeting what would you suggest? Are there some suggestions you have?

Linda Liberatore:    Well, first of, there’s… I’m all about the technology. Right?

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    I would say, what I’ve seen change so much is this meet-up.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    So meet-up really, is just the tool to find it. Whether I’m gonna be crocheting, or investing or reading books.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    So you just get out there, find what’s in your area… By all means, are you gonna find ones that are just about selling you the next thing? Yes, but you have to be smart, most of those…

Rod Khleif:                Let me stop you for one second. You are gonna hit REIA groups where they bring in speakers, gurus, quote, unquote. I say that tongue-in-cheek and I will tell you, they are geared to sell you. Those REIAs actually split whatever they sell at those events. So just be careful.

Linda Liberatore:    Right.

Rod Khleif:                Put your hand on your wallet and be careful if you’re going to one of those large REIAs where they bring speakers like that in. They’re great salespeople, so just be careful but…

Linda Liberatore:    Look for the authentic speakers…

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    One of the things that I would suggest, like what I do, is I go through the websites to look at the past speakers.

Rod Khleif:                Good idea.

Linda Liberatore:    We’re a group that’s been around 25 years. We have probably 20 years worth of speakers out there. So there’s like nothing to hide. They’re all valuable educational resources. You’ll get a flavor for the group by looking through who they’ve had. If you see, it’s like you’re saying, “Time after time, it’s just another sales and it’s another package.” Then maybe…  I’m not saying that’s not the group, there could be really good groups like that. But if you’re looking to make community ties, that’s not the one that’s gonna help you with that.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    So you’re looking for groups that are focused on the community. If you don’t have one, I would strongly suggest you start one…

Rod Khleif:                Start one. Yeah. Start your own, absolutely.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. [chuckles] And because…

Rod Khleif:                What a great way to have authority, and instant authority and build a reputation, a resource for your community. That’s another thing. You’re gonna find, guys, that there are a lot of single-family groups. There aren’t a lot of multi-family groups.

So those of you that are listening it’s an opportunity. You can start your own. I don’t care if it’s five or 10 people. It’s worth doing.

Linda Liberatore:    Absolutely. Absolutely, Rod.  I’m in another group in Chicago called the Roger’s Park Group, and they’re all multi-family. They’re right along the lake. I don’t know if you know the Chicago area but right along Loyola College, DePaul College, those over there.

Rod Khleif:                Nice.

Linda Liberatore:    And they’ve been around some 20 something years. Same thing, they’re pillars in the community, they support the activities and they recently did something over the last three years; where they got involved with the local high school. And as you know there’s different areas and demographics in Chicago and some are more troubling let’s say, than others.

Rod Khleif:                Oh, yeah.

Linda Liberatore:    And this school was losing funding. What they did, it really chokes you up but it was a school that what they did was the owners, these real estate investors got together and put in what they refer to as a low incidence room, but in other words, it’s a room with all home appliances. They had to set it up like a house for special needs children in the school.

Well who better to do that than the landlords that are always remodeling homes. They have this like real bond with the community and many times multi-family landlords are looked down on. Right?

Rod Khleif:                Oh, sure. Oh, sure. No. They make the paper because…

Linda Liberatore:    Right. The terrible guys or girls.

Rod Khleif:                Yeah, no I mean, I absolutely know about that and it happens regularly and you know, it’s the evil landlord, the Scrooge landlord. The press loves that stuff, so they eat it up.

Linda Liberatore:    Right.

Rod Khleif:                You really don’t get an opportunity to defend yourself and so you wanna be very, very careful. If you can proactively do things in the community like you just described, that’s fantastic. That really sets you apart.

Linda Liberatore:    Oh, my gosh. They have the support…

Rod Khleif:                And guys, if you go on and talk to the Police Department, that’s just such a huge thing because they know that you care. So when they have… and the Building Department, so when you have a tenant that uses a quote on quote issue with the unit to make your life hell which is very not uncommon guys.

Linda Liberatore:    Right.

Rod Khleif:                They’ll bring the Health Department or the Building Department. If you’ve already established a relationship with these people, and they know you care, it makes a huge difference. That would prevent the tenants from utilizing one of these government agencies to make your life hell. Okay. So very, very important that you proactively set up those relationships.

Linda Liberatore:    Absolutely, Rod. I meant to jump on that before when you said that about the police. The police officers, and as you said, the Building Department those are all you’re circle of friends, or should be.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    So if you start this small meet-up group and it’s as you described, three to five members to get it off the ground, you have definitely set your reputation. We had one, I forget the exact incident, but the tenant said, “Well I’m gonna call the aldermen,” which in the Chicago area, that would be your political position for a specific neighborhood.

Rod Khleif:                Sure.

Linda Liberatore:    And I said, “You go right ahead. Because I have a relationship with…

Rod Khleif:                Here’s his number. Do you want his cellphone? [chuckles]

Linda Liberatore:    Right, cause you know what, we had established ourselves as having integrity is doing the right thing by the landlords. That doesn’t mean you win or they’re gonna give you favoritism. They’re gonna evaluate the situation but you go in with some political capital.

You go in, where you can’t blame them. They wanna just do what’s right. But at least they go in knowing Rod’s a man of integrity. He’s always acted with integrity. “Yes I’ll judge the situation but at least I know a little bit about Rod.”

Rod Khleif:                Now, it just helps to try to level the playing field. Because it really isn’t a level playing field when you’re dealing landlord-tenant. It’s always evil landlord, it’s never the evil tenant. When regularly, it should be the evil tenant.

Linda Liberatore:    [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                So, just know that guys you wanna do everything you can to level the playing field. What else anything else in the book that you can touch on?

Linda Liberatore:    We talked about…

Rod Khleif:                I’m now kinda holding your feet to the fire here…

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah, you are.

Rod Khleif:                It’s been such a pleasure. I…

Linda Liberatore:    You got to give me a copy of the book them. I need the cheat sheet. I need it now.

Rod Khleif:                [chuckles]

Linda Liberatore:    I think the other thing is, let’s talk a little bit about the marketing.

Rod Khleif:                Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    I think that as you and I, again know, we’re no longer just MLS and newspaper. It’s all about the social media campaigns. It’s all about building a reputation. So I think that along the lines of what we’re talking about, getting out there and meeting, let’s say the dry cleaner, and putting all your pens at the dry cleaner, and letting them know when you have a vacancy.

If you’re by the hospitals, if you’re by schools, and nobody wants…

Rod Khleif:                Guerilla marketing. You’re talking about guerilla marketing now.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                Flyers, and tear-offs, and things to that nature. Yeah. Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    Yep, and then with your social media a lot of those places will be willing… Let’s say your local restaurant, they’re just opening. They’re more than willing to give you some kind of coupon, some kind of, you to help them by putting that out, they’re on Facebook, on YouTube as you said, whatever your channels are, Twitter.

Get that information out there and you’re helping them. You’re building a sense of community. It really helps establish you in that area.

Rod Khleif:                Sure. I’d tell you, if you guys do a larger property it’s very helpful to go around the local businesses. Ask them for coupons, or flyers and create a welcome package for your residents. Obviously, you can ask for things in return, like maybe a tear off sheet for vacancies or whatever.

Whatever it is, whatever sort of a tit-for-tat kind of a thing you can do but anything you can do like that your community. It really makes a huge difference if you’ve got a high vacancy or you’ve got a lot of turnover for some reason. Or you’re buying a property that’s been poorly managed that it’s got a lot of vacancy, and you need to ramp it quickly.


Rod Khleif:                Those guerrilla efforts can be hugely powerful.

Linda Liberatore:    Absolutely, Rod. I would piggyback that too to say that that’s where the new investor with the multi-family, look to the big guys there. I mean emulate what you see.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    Let’s say these National Multi-family…

Rod Khleif:                Sure, virtual tour. Take a camera, and do video and do a virtual tour of your property.

Linda Liberatore:    Right.

Rod Khleif:                Maybe draw out a floor plan, and put a floor plan online. Do these things that these other people are doing.

Linda Liberatore:    And people like the authentic, Rod. You don’t have to go and get the camera crew, just take the cell phone, as you said, walk through that unit. We even see investors that do it while it’s in construction,

Again, I can’t think of the name of those TV shows but it all those shows that are so popular.  They like to see it in construction, don’t feel like you just need…

Rod Khleif:                Interesting.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. Like show it during… “Okay, new cabinets are
Going in”. Or, “We’re ripping out this carpet.” Or whatever it is, you’re gaining a little bit of hype, if you will, and a few followers. ‘Cause you’re putting these pictures out there, or videos as it’s going along. You’d be surprised how… I don’t wanna say it goes viral…

Rod Khleif:                No, but you get interaction and you get views and just one more way to… I mean, when you lease one unit from it, it’s worth every bit of it.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah, absolutely.

Rod Khleif:                And you want multiple venues or platforms to guerrilla market on. So certainly, showing pictures, I mean I’ve seen that on Facebook. I’ve got friends that are doing remodels and things, and they post the pictures. They post the before and after pictures; very proud of them.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah, they love that. I don’t know if you’re a fan, I didn’t get to talk about this. Are you a fan of Grant Cardone?

Rod Khleif:                Of course…

Linda Liberatore:    Oh, you’ve heard of that guy…

Rod”                            He’s been on the show. He’s fantastic.

Linda Liberatore:    Oh, has he. I didn’t know that, Rod. I love him. I did a boot camp with him this year.

Rod Khleif:                Did you got to Miami for that? Yeah, he’s a hoot.

Linda Liberatore:    He is a hoot. I followed him for a few years. He gives me, definitely, a ton of energy.

Rod Khleif:                Yeah. If I was at home, I could show you my “Comfort Kills” sign that’s right at my home office.

Linda Liberatore:    How bout it?

Rod Khleif:                Yeah. Yeah. He’s awesome.

Linda Liberatore:    It’s a philosophy, it is. But I bring that up because I think it’s relevant because when he brings up that piece about social media, and maybe ‘cause I’m a little older, which I don’t like to own all the time, but the reality is, anybody that doesn’t recognize you have of all these tools for free, then if you’re not taking advantage of that then don’t tell me why your unit’s vacant, ‘cause it gets the word out.

Rod Khleif:                Thank you. Thank you. There’s so many opportunities. I mean it really is unbelievable. I go Facebook Live and I have 3000 views…

Linda Liberatore:    [chuckles]

Rod Khleif:                I’m not that interesting. and interesting but I’m getting reach. It’s awesome. Very cool.

Linda Liberatore:    Right, no, I so agree. The thing is, we’re almost spoiled. When you say that comfort kills, I do have a bit of concern, as we said, for people that haven’t been through different cycles, that right now rents are high, vacancies are low, like don’t rest on your laurels. Have some plans out there.

Rod Khleif:                Thank you.

Linda Liberatore:    Be building that momentum.

Rod Khleif:                Right, really, and be buying. Realizing that it’s gonna pull back… Back to social media for a second, I’m really glad you brought that up. I just created a Facebook group for multi-family investors. Guys, if you’re not on there and you’re interested in listening to this you’re making a mistake.

It’s go to multifamilycommunity.com and it’s a direct link to this Facebook group. There’s already over 600 people in there and it’s been up for a week.

Linda Liberatore:    Oh, wow.

Rod Khleif:                Yeah, and so…

Linda Liberatore:    That is great, Rod. I’m gonna join. [chuckles] I’m going to join.

Rod Khleif:                Please do.

Linda Liberatore:    Yes.

Rod Khleif:                Absolutely do. It’s a place to peer mentor. A lot of my podcast guests like yourself are going to be there’s. So there’s a lot of lot of very, very knowledgeable people there. So guys if you’re interested in this business, you wanna make sure you’re on that Facebook group. Again, it’s multifamilycommunity.com and if you Google my name, or put my name in Facebook it should pop up as well.

Great resource and already a lot of action going on there, and I’m going to be putting a lot of content on there as well. Not a place to promote though guys. Not a place to promote your deals, it’s not a place that you go in to advertise.

It’s a place to educate, and learn, and grow, and all that. But it’s an incredible resource. Thank you for reminding me of that, I forgot to mention that. Yeah, social media is awesome. And if you’re a multi-family owner, you need to be utilizing it. Guerrilla market your units, for sure, absolutely.

Linda Liberatore:    Along the same lines, Rod, I’m going to mention a little story that I think is a little bit relevant here. Some people, I guess, depending on your age, would be aware of the Better Business Bureau.

Rod Khleif:                Sure.

Linda Liberatore:    If you know a little bit about its history, it really was a spot that previous generations for certain it was their only resource tool to find out if…

Rod Khleif:                To evaluate businesses, sure.

Linda Liberatore:    Right. So before you could buy a car, or whatever, you’d find out if that car dealer had good reviews.

Rod Khleif:                Right.

Linda Liberatore:    Recently, I have been talking to somebody there and we were talking about the fact that you need to, as a multi-family… Think of this as a business, and think of this for your reviews. So what you wanna do is start to gather those reviews, like right now. Like while things are really good and you don’t think you need those.

Rod Khleif:                Positive reviews.

Linda Liberatore:    Yes.

Rod Khleif:                Guys, this is called reputation management. I’m so glad you brought this up Linda. ‘Cause it’s never been brought up on the show before. Guys, one of the first things we do when we evaluate a properties, we look at the reviews.

Linda Liberatore:    Exactly.

Rod Khleif:                There’s so many sources now, online; Yelp and all these other things. You wanna manage that. It’s called reputation management. Especially if you’re buying something bigger than like a four-plex or something. If you’re doing 10 units plus, you’re gonna have a reputation online, ultimately. So manage that by proactively getting positive reviews like your talking about, Linda. I’m so glad you brought that up. It’s very, very important.

Linda Liberatore:    It’s very important and the reality is… And I’m just being realistic here, not negative. But the reality is, this type of business lends itself to…

Rod Khleif:                To the negative.

Linda Liberatore:    To the negative reviews.

Rod Khleif:                Yeah, sure. It’s complaining…

Linda Liberatore:    So if you don’t go out and proactively get that guy, right when he says, “Thank you, Rod. This was great. I really appreciate it.” You wanna stop in that moment and remember this conversation, Rod, and reputation management…

Rod Khleif:                Yes. Yes.

Linda Liberatore:    And get that review right then.

Rod Khleif:                The minute they’re thrilled that you fixed something, like within an hour of them calling, or the same day, or whatever, you say, “Hey, listen, could you do me a favor, just take two seconds and go to Yelp, and say great things about me. It’ll only take you two seconds,” and you definitely wanna do that.

Another thing, if you have a negative review, don’t hide. Respond. Give your position. If you screwed up, then… Yeah. There’s a whole strategy to that, and I will tell you sometimes, it is actually best to let it go.

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah.

Rod Khleif:                And just let it get buried. But if you really have a position in there, that’s strong, then you respond. If you don’t, then it’s almost better not to say anything. There’s a whole strategy to it, but the key is, if you’re proactive, and you get the positive reviews, yes, you’re gonna get the negative ones; trust me it comes with the business. Even the A properties get the negative ones. It’s human error. You mess up. You don’t get to them fast enough or you know… You can’t make everybody happy.

Linda Liberatore:    Exactly.

Rod Khleif:                So really important. I’m really glad you brought that up Linda.

Linda Liberatore:    But then, I’m gonna twist that back to what you say, that that’s comfort. How did you put that?

Rod Khleif:                Comfort kills.

Linda Liberatore:    You can’t get comfortable.

Rod Khleif:                Yeah, comfort kills.

Linda Liberatore:    Comfort kills. I forgot that. Don’t just listen to this. Make sure you do it.

Rod Khleif:                Do it.

Linda Liberatore:    Because the day you get that bad one, you’re just going to…

Rod Khleif:                Oh, yeah, then you’re scrambling and you’re trying to get to…

Linda Liberatore:    Right.

Rod Khleif:                You’re hoping that you could get people to leave good reviews…

Linda Liberatore:    Yeah. Yeah. You don’t wanna do it then.

Rod Khleif:                You’ve got a one or a zero on your rating and that’s no fun. That’s not a fun place to be. Been there, done that. It’s no fun. So be proactive.

Linda Liberatore:    Yep.

Rod Khleif:                Well, Linda, this has been a blast. Really enjoyed, you’ve added a ton of value. I know your company is… mylanndlordhelper.com?

Linda Liberatore:    That’s correct.

Rod Khleif:                Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    That’s correct.

Rod Khleif:                Awesome.

Linda Liberatore:    And we’d be happy to help anyone in your audience, Rod. Any way we could.

Rod Khleif:                Okay.

Linda Liberatore:    We have a service but it’s… If I could be of value, that’s… I’m looking to be in the group to add value.

Rod Khleif:                Awesome.

Linda Liberatore:    Too many times, people make mistakes, and if we can help them avoid that, that’s what we’ll do.

Rod Khleif:                Well thank you so much for being on the show. You’ve absolutely added value today. It was very much a pleasure and let’s stay in touch.

Linda Liberatore:    Thank you and my pleasure that you had me.
Thank you again.

Rod Khleif:                Alright. Take care. Bye now.

Linda Liberatore:    Thank you. Bye-bye.


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