Ep #485 – JC Castillo – 5 Tips for Protecting your Assets in a Downturn

JC has been through three recessions so his insight is very valuable when it comes to asset protection. Here’s some of what we covered:

  • Increase your reserve
  • Pause CAPX Spending
  • Double down on customer experience
  • Focus and prioritize retention
  • Track KPIs 
  • Bridging the knowledge gap 
  • Flip for Profit vs Operate for Profit


To find out more about our guest:


Full Transcript Below

Ep #485 – JC Castillo – Multifamily Assets Protection in a Downturn – 5 Tips

Rod:  Welcome to another edition of “How to Build Lifetime Cashflow through Real Estate Investing”. I’m Rod Khleif, and I am thrilled you’re here. And I’m very excited to interview my friend today, JC Castillo. Now, JC and I have known each other for several years. He was on the show, gosh! We were trying to figure out when, because I didn’t have a chance to look. But I think it’s like two and a half, three years ago. And we’ve become friends and he’s actually a member of my “Multifamily Boardroom Mastermind”. And he’s one of the smartest guys I know and definitely one of the best operators I know. So, I’m very excited to dig into that. But today, we’re actually going to talk about “How to keep your tenants happy?” And in the framework is, in a downturn. But the bottom line is, the strategies will work regardless of where we are, you know, in a market cycle. Welcome to the show again brother, it’s good to see you!

JC:    Hey, thanks a lot Rod! I’m excited to be here man.

Rod:  Oh, thank you! So, you know take a second and for those of the people that may not have suffered two, three years of me to re-associate them with ‘Who you are?’ How you– You know, ‘How you got into this business?’ And let’s start there and just tell a little bit of your background. And then, we’ll get into the, you know, the meat of this thing.

JC:    Yeah, I’m an ex-techie out of the Silicon Valley. So, I live in San Jose, California. I was in the semiconductor business for about 15 years out of college. And I’ve been through, you know, this is my third recession now. The first one, was as an engineering person in the Silicon Valley. So, really that’s what turned me on to diversifying into real estate to begin with in 2001. The tech bubble burst, if you remember, stock market went crazy and just dipped like crazy. So, you know, from there I started getting into real estate. You know, did some single-family stuff very very early on, in the early 2000s and really shifted over into multifamily because I really wanted to scale it up. And so, for me that was a big thing. And also, I felt like multifamily gave me a lot of stability in investing because it’s something that– You know, it’s a– I call it you know, the basic needs business. Right? Food, clothing and shelter. And I’m in the shelter business. So, anytime soon. So, you know, long story short, I built up a company. Today, we’re a private equity shop. And you know, we’ve got– you know, several assets under management. We have large-scale properties in Dallas Fort Worth. And I also, along the way, built out my own property management company in Dallas Fort Worth. So, we are vertically integrated. Meaning that, we both operate large-scale apartment properties and more importantly we manage our own portfolio.


Rod:  Yeah. And guys, so his company’s MPG Residential. He’s got over a thousand doors. I forgot to mention that when I introduced you. Forgive me, JC. So– And you’ve been–, you’ve vertically integrated, basically. You’ve got your own property management and you went through the downturn in ’08, ’09, ’10. And, came out smelling like a rose. So, that’s what we’re gonna talk about today is, you know, we– I had Harry Dent on the show recently. We talked about a crash. I did a Youtube video about the coming crash of 2021. And, you know, some people think I’m crazy. Some people agree with me. We’ll see. I’ve been wrong before but I think we’re headed for some pain in this country, regardless of the outcome of the election. And so, let’s assume that we are– but what are the strategies that we’re gonna talk about here frankly are great, regardless. So, I know you’ve got five tips around, you know, keeping your residence in your communities. Really, anytime but particularly when things get tough for landlords. So, let’s dig right into that.

JC:    Yeah, and really, I’d say that there are five ways, in a little bit more of a general area. Five ways to protect your assets. I mean, some of them don’t have to do with customer experience. Your customers being your residence. But–

Rod:  Okay.

JC:    But, a lot of them actually do. So, you know, there’s five things that I’ve learned. That I think your listeners out there, If I put my list– myself in your listeners shoes, you know, they may not have gone through a recession in the multifamily business. And if they haven’t, these are five things that I’ve learned along the way from personal experience going through these things. And, I think these are tidbits and tips that you can use to protect yourself in a downturn.

Rod:  Okay. Well, let’s roll right in brother. What’s number one?

JC:    Well, the number one thing I’ve got is increase your reserves. You know, so let’s start with reserves and what they are. You know, reserves are simply the excess operating money in your piggy bank. So, your savings account for a rainy day. So, anytime you’ve got a large multifamily property, you’re going to want to have fun sitting around on the sidelines for a just in case type of an event. A downturn would certainly qualify. So, in a normally functioning economy, my rule of thumb that I use is, you usually want to have about a thousand dollars per unit in the piggy bank for a rainy day. So, if you’ve got a hundred unit complex, you want to have about a hundred thousand dollars in a normal environment. Right?

Rod:  In a normal environment, right.

JC:    In a normal environment. So, when the economy turns south and there’s a downturn. What you want to do is, you want to increase your reserves. And the simple reason is, you want to make sure that you’ve got enough money to cover your expenses and your mortgage payment in case your revenue dips because people are losing jobs. So, and which means they can’t pay their rent. So, in a downturn, I like to increase that by at least 25% to 50%. Meaning, if you’ve got it that same 100-unit complex, you’re going to want to go up to about 125,000 to 150,000. If you can get it up to 200,000 even better. Now, if you’ve got a property where you’ve already got a limited amount of reserves, and you’ve got to increase it somehow. You want– You may want to consider halting or holding on your investor distributions for one or two quarters to get that reserve up. If you have to do it, you’ve got to explain it ahead of time to the investors and explain your logic. Things are not happening bad right now but we want to be safe because the worst thing you want to do, trust me, and I’ve never done this myself but you do not want to have to make a capital call to your investors, to ask for more money. So, that’s my number one tip, is get your reserves up.

Rod:  Okay, and I– we are even much more conservative than that JC. I will tell you. You know, we just purchased an asset in Cincinnati, 280 doors and our reserve there is over a million dollars. We purchased an asset in North East Atlanta. Beautiful, beautiful asset. They’re both really beautiful and we’ve got over a half a million there and that’s 116-units. So, you know, again most of you guys know my story. You know, when JC was coasting through ’08, ’09, I had a bunch of single-family houses and got destroyed. So, you know, hit me once, shame on you. Hit me twice, then it’s my fault. So, we’re not going to let that happen again but, love it. Operate– and that’s critical guys, you know, besides you know, we’re buying assets right now and even in– and then, you know, with the possibility of a downturn because you know, if we find a screaming deal, we’re going to do it. But we’re even more conservative on our front end on the stress testing. And of course, these operating reserves. So, that is really–

JC:    Yeah. There’s an important distinction between what I call operating reserves and what we would call capex, where you’re going to rehab a project. So, of course, when you first– in the middle of buying a deal, you’re gonna raise a lot of extra money to rehab the project. So, I’m talking about reserves in a really stabilized property after you’ve done all your rehab. You should still have 100,000 or so and increase that in a downturn.

Rod:  Well, yeah and agreed. And luckily, we’ve been able to find deals where we could have the capex plus the reserve but plus that very, very high reserve. And the reason on the Cincinnati, it’s a million, is because you know, it’s really a C property right now. And I literally went through, line by line and looked at where every single tenant there worked. Business by business, and rated them based on the possibility of a Covid-related issue with each resident. And then, I was satisfied enough to close but you know, agree! And let me ask you that, you know, to further this conversation, we talked about possibly halting distributions. But let’s say someone has just, is maybe in the middle of capex right now. How do you feel about holding off on capex and holding on to that money? Just in case.

JC:    You’re segueing me perfectly into my number two.

Rod:  Oh! Okay, okay.

JC:    Number two is, to pause your capex spending. Okay. So, you know, what do I mean by that? Well, you know, your capital spending is basically if you buy a property and you’re gonna do some amount of repositioning work to the property. In a normally functioning economy, that’s a lot of times that’s perfect because you can actually upgrade the property and you can charge a premium for your product. But in a downturn, your ability to charge a premium sometimes goes away. And so, if you’ve got all this capital that you’re wanting to do a reposition with the property on, the first thing you need to do in a downturn is stop. Stop spending money and do a complete reassessment from top to bottom of every single thing that you’re spending on and make sure that it really requires to be spent at the current time because believe me, you would be better off keeping that money in the bank. Just in case, rather than spending it because you may not be able to get a return on your investment at the current time in the downturn. Now, if the downturn comes around and the economy starts going back to normal again, that’s the time when you want to start to redeploy that capital. Because that’s when you can get the return for your bucks spent. There’s nothing wrong with waiting six months to one year of repositioning that property because of a downturn. Because you’ll be much better off for stopping now and being very careful about how you spend your money. You know, these businesses are very simple and they are businesses. You got your income from your rents. You got your expenses and your capital expenses from operating the property and repositioning the property. You got to turn those spigots off when we hit a downturn to be very safe.

Rod: Yeah. Yeah, and I love what you said about really literally going through every expenditure and making sure it’s necessary right now. I mean, basically you’re circling the wagons. You’re battening down the hatches. And that’s what prudent, proactive, forward thinking operators do. And those are the ones that survive things like this. There’s a reason, a bunch of properties go back in a downturn is because people aren’t thinking like this. And they think that, the gravy train is going to go on forever. I know in ’06 and ’07, I fell into that trap myself. I thought Florida was recession-proof. Eighty million baby boomers getting old, getting cold. I thought, that was my line. I thought, it was– you know, of course it was ground zero for what happened.

JC:    Yeah. Protecting your downside is always critical even in a normally functioning economy. But it is absolutely make or break critical in a downturn.

Rod:  Yeah. All right. So, pause capex, increase reserves, what’s number three?

JC:    Number three is a double down on your customer experience, Rod. I mean, you kind of hit that at the very beginning of the segment. And you know, it’s one thing that a lot of people don’t focus on. It’s something that we critically focus on because we also operate and properly manage our own properties. But I can tell you that in a downturn, if you know what happens in a downturn, especially in multifamily. And I’ve seen this, is that, a lot of people think that, you know, rents are the things to suffer. Meaning, that people can’t pay their rents. Actually, this pandemic has proven that people have maintained paying rents for the most part. We’ve seen an average of maybe, one to two percent decline month over month over pre-Covid versus Covid in terms of collection. So, people are still paying their rents but what does happen is, the occupancy on your properties that tends to go down. And so, what happens is, your customer experience becomes critically important because people now start to have choices. A lot more than they had before in terms of where they can go. And all of your competitors are going to be competing for that dollar, for that customer, your renter. And so, your customer experience, if it’s not top-notch– So, if you’ve got a third-party property management company, you got to be checking out how they’re managing your property. If that customer experience for your renter when they walk in the door and they’ve got a work order, for example. If that work order doesn’t get serviced properly and immediately? And done the first time, right time? There’s a very, very good chance that you’re going to lose that resident at the time that they have to renew their lease. So, customer experience becomes very, very, very important so the small things. Focus on the really regular things. You’d be surprised. How many people drop the ball with just the basics of blocking and tackling. Does your–

Rod:  Give some examples.

JC:    Does your manager have a smile on her face? Do work orders get done in a timely fashion? When they have to pay their rent, do you make it excessively difficult? Especially with the pandemic, can they pay online? If people have to go into the office and they’re worried about the pandemic, believe me, that’s a bad customer experience. You want to make everything virtual now. Virtual tours. Can they do virtual tours instead of coming into the property? So, all these things, they all add up to really give a top-notch customer experience. You’ve got to double down on that in a downturn.

Rod:  Yeah. So, and maybe I’m getting ahead of myself here. Are you going to talk about, you’re going to talk about KPIs and that they relate to work orders, right? Okay. Fantastic! Yeah. So, guys, one of the things we do, when we first look at a property, is we will visit all of the competing properties. And, one of the things we look at is, how well the– that management company has trained their employees to respond to visits. You know, do they jump out of their chair to greet you with a smile? And do they have positive energy? And all of that. And right now, more than ever like JC said, you’ve got to be all over that customer experience without question. And you know, to further enhance that, can you talk about maybe some of the things that you do to build community in your communities? Can you speak to that or is that one of the topics?

JC:    Yeah. No, I think building a community is really important. So, look. It all comes– I want to be very consistent with the theme here because we can go into the weeds of all the things that we do to try to enhance things. But I think the basic in blocking and tackling is what’s most critically important. And I think a lot of people miss. And if that’s missing, that actually destroys the customer experience more than anything. So, it’s the simple things. Keep it simple. For example, work orders, I can’t stress enough.

Rod:  Right.

JC:    When a resident moves in and they’ve got something that goes wrong with their unit and it happens to every single property. You do have to have great maintenance guys that get in there right away and they fix the issue. For– and I give you a great example. You’ve got to have what I call a closed-loop system for managing work orders. What do I mean by that? Well, a lot of people allow the managers of the properties to take work orders. So, in other words, if you’ve got a work order request, your resident, you walk into the leasing office and you give your work order to the manager. Well, you know, you got to understand these managers have a million different things going on. And so, they may not remember to enter that work order into our system. Okay? And if they– and even if they do remember to enter it, they actually may not want to enter it because maybe, they just got hit with 15 other work orders. And they don’t want to bug their maintenance guys down. So, what you have to understand is that, the manager is not always happy to get a work order. In fact, sometimes they’re not happy at all. You’ll get a work order. So, by a closed-loop system– I mean, that you’ve got to figure out how to eliminate the possibility of people not entering that work order right away. And you’ve got to get other people that are not related to the property if you can, and we’ve done this, to be able to take the work orders and be happy to process any work order. And have no skin in the game in terms of how much work it’s going to create for your team. So, what I mean by closed-loop system is, make sure that you have a way to make sure that those residents, every time they have a work order request, that the ball is never dropped and you can track it to closure.

Rod:  Love it! love it, love it, love it. Yeah. That’s really, really powerful and you know, I can absolutely– I’ve seen what you just– that dynamic you just described where you see a manager. The desk is covered with six inches of paper. They’re over there, you know. They’re working on reports, and employees, and all the other things they have to think about. Walking the property. And you know, and they’re the ones that are– and so, what you’re looking for, what you’re eliminating is these cogs in the wheel in these breakdowns. So, I love it. Okay. What’s the next one?

JC:    Number four, I’ve got– and it’s related to customer experience. So, you’ve got to focus and prioritize resident retention. Okay. Resident retention means, keeping butts in the seats, quite simply. So, you know, there’s only two ways to fill up your property, right? One is to fill– is to have the new butts come in the seats with the new leases, and two is, to keep the existing butts in the seats. Now, in a normally functioning economy, you’re going to be repositioning your property. And most likely, when you upgrade your units, you’re going to be able to get a premium. And so actually, you don’t really mind in a normally functioning economy losing residents out the back door that we call it, right? That’s people that don’t renew their leases. Leaving out the back door because you’ve got that nice door open in the front with this nice pretty shiny project and units. And you’re getting a premium for those units when they’re coming in, again, in a normally functioning economy. But when things turn south, what happens is that, you wanna kind of flip that on its head. So, what you wanna do is go, ‘Okay. Now, I have a downturn. So, my renters–‘ So, you put your renter’s hat on. My renters are more focused about will they have a job in two months. Not necessarily how– what’s the prettiest shiny object that I can go rent? So, you want to go from upgrading units to really focusing on a, what I call an economy unit, that’s got all the functionality but maybe it doesn’t have the late– the new appliances. It doesn’t have the granite countertops but instead, you want to work on saving those residents that are already in your property. So, you know, a lot of people focus on the leasing part which is great and a lot of management companies do that too. But they forget, that the minute you give the keys to the customer, which is your resident. From that exact moment, your job is to get them to sign a renewal in one year. And many people, when the notice to vacate goes out or the renewal notice goes out they go, “Oh!” That’s when I really need to focus on keeping my resident. But guess what? They’ve already made the decision to renew at your property months, and months, and months ago. It started from the minute that they moved in. So, resident retention becomes super critical in a downturn and the way you do it is you focus on, from day one when they move in. You focus on making that person happy so that in a year from then, they renew their lease. Now, if you don’t focus on resident retention during a downturn, you can get really hurt. Because occupancy can drop really fast at a property in a downturn. And it’s very, very difficult to fill that property back up in a downturn. So, once you lose those butts in the seats, it’s very hard to fill it back up. And so, you absolutely have to focus on resident retention in order to save your bacon in a downturn. Because if you don’t have enough people to pay their rent, you don’t have enough money to pay your expenses and your mortgage.

Rod:  Yup. It’s actually a po– it’s bigger deal than leasing for sure. It’s critical because like as you said, it’s very very difficult to put butts in the seats when you’re in the middle of the downturn. It’s much, much easier to keep them. Okay. Love it! What’s the next one?

JC:    Well, the last one Rod, I know you’re gonna love this one. And that is to track your KPI’s religiously. Okay. What do I mean by a KPI? First of all, a KPI is a “Key Performance Indicator”. And what does that mean? Well, that’s basically just a set of simple, simple bar charts and pie graphs that tell me exactly how each of my properties is doing from an executive level with just a simple glance. And you use KPI’s in a very simple fashion, to know exactly where any problems are happening in your portfolio. So that, you can immediately go and problem solve the issues. And so, what you want to do is, use KPI’s for two things. One, to problem solve issues. But two, to ignore all the stuff that is functioning properly. So, if I see a bunch of greens on my KPI’s, in my simple charts and I’m looking through and I got a ton of stuff that I got to worry about. I’m not worrying about the green stuff. If I see a red, I’m immediately jumping in with my team. We’re gonna go problem solve and fix it. Now, if you don’t have KPI’s, then that’s your number one issue you need to fix. Get the KPI’s, you know, get start when– we can talk about what those might be.

Rod:  Let’s make a list. Let’s make a list if you don’t mind. I would like to drill down on that a little bit. So, people are wondering, you know, what– besides the obvious stuff like. Like you know, vacancy and collections, things of that nature. What are some other things that are tracked? So, if you don’t mind, let’s go down on.

JC:    Yeah. I mean, we’ve got some real simple ones. Right. So, we start with income or rental income, percent to budget. So, I want to know if my rental income is hitting my budget or not. Total collected income each month and year to date. Number two, would be delinquency. I want to know how much delinquency I’ve got, not only do I want to know how much but I want to know how much of it is 30 plus days out. Meaning that, if I’ve got 30 plus day out link delinquency, most likely that’s going to be somebody that may not be able to catch up. You know, earlier you know, 30 days or younger delinquency is mostly people just trying to make rent for that month. So that’s not as big of an issue. As long as you don’t carry it to the very end of the month. Number three is, projected occupancy versus current occupancy. A lot of people pay attention to current occupancy but that’s like knowing what’s going to happen today and knowing nothing of what’s going to happen in 90 days. You want to know what’s happening in 90 days because you really have to start to prepare your marketing approach based on what’s happening in 90 days versus what’s happening exactly right now. So, in other words you might be 95% occupied today and you might have, you know, 15% worth of notice to vacates at your property. And not even realize it because you’re not paying attention and then you get slammed in 60 days and you go from 95% to 80% occupancy. You’re going, “What happened?” Well, that’s because you’re not tracking your future occupancy. So, you really got to know that. That’s more important than knowing what’s happening today. Another big one is tracking your expenses. You know, I’m talking about your repairs and maintenance, your administrative expenses, your advertising expenses, your– you know, your utility expenses. If you’ve got a utility that’s out of control and you’re not tracking that and you’ve got a busted water line, you’re letting potentially thousands of dollars go out of your pocket each month without even knowing it. And if you can get even more granular, you want to know actually, day to day, week to week. But expenses, track your expenses. Another thing that you absolutely want to track and this is guys, this is one that I’m going to give you that not many people do and I can promise you this from personal experience. Track your work orders. Track how your company is– your property management is companies doing with responding to your work order. So, I want to know how many work orders are currently at each property? And I want to know how many are aging? Okay? When I say aging, I mean, that if a resident submits a work order and it’s not turned over in 24 hours. I want to know about that. I want to know how many are aging over 24 hours and I also want to know how many are aging over five days. If you think about it, if you’ve got a– you’re living in a rental unit. Okay? And you’ve got a toilet bowl that’s been broken for five plus days? That is completely unacceptable. And you as an owner, cannot trust and assume that your management company is taking care of work orders. If you don’t even know how long it takes them to turn. We also have a work order survey report. We– and that goes out every single time in our company that a resident has an issue? Automatically when the work orders close, they get an email that says, how did we do and where did we fail. And I love to see those things and believe me, we get tons of negative feedback which we have to fix. But, if you don’t know that the problems are there, how in the heck are you going to fix them? So, my biggest tip to you guys is all the obvious financial ones. What we talked about is great. But think about the customer experience and how you can put KPI’s in place to track. How your customers are feeling about your property.

Rod:  Yeah. No, I love it! And you know, a lot of people are afraid of feedback. But you know, unless you’re getting that feedback, there’s no way you’re going to improve. And you’re walking around with blinders on, like you said, you just don’t know. And this is all very, very sound advice particularly in a downturn. I mean, it’s important anytime. Like I said, previously. So, and I know you’ve perfected this whole KPI monitoring process. You say, it’s simple with graphs and stuff but it’s not that simple for a– cause you’ve got softwares that talk to each other. Excuse me. And you know, I know and that’s why I love hearing about it from you because you’ve got it so dialed in that you’re able to look at a graph and see, you know, something’s red where most of the operators out there literally are going to have to kind of calculate it themselves. And look at it month to month, to look for anomalies and issues where you’ve got it graphed out.

JC:    Here’s the good news on that department, Rod. And I’ve spent a lot of time doing this and you know, look. There are some advantages of us having our own property management company because we have full transparency to the software system that runs the properties. But all these software systems and there’s only several really really big ones, right? You’ve got RealPage. You’ve got Yardi. You’ve got ResMan. You’ve got AppFolio and you’ve got a couple of others. But, most of these big software providers nowadays that your management companies will have, are going to be able to give you some sort of a pretty significant access to the software data. And there’s some very standard ways that they’ve come up with for the most part nowadays, for you to be able to plug-in and download the data and turn that data into charts. So, if you– even if you have to get it through excel, you can turn this stuff into to readable charts by just knowing how to use the data. And if you need to go hire people to do that, you can. The great thing is you know, they got fiverr.com and stuff like that on the web now. Where you can go find contractors that are experts in taking the raw data and turning it into useful information. And that is your job as an owner, as an asset manager is to go solve that equation. Because the bridge between knowing what’s happening real time at your property and not knowing, that bridge is going to be your lifesaver especially in a downturn.

Rod:  Yeah. Very sound advice. What’s the question I haven’t asked you that you would like to answer? Because I want to, you know, I’m really loving this incredible knowledge that you’re throwing out today, buddy.

JC:    Well, you know, I really like to– I’ve enjoyed, you know, just talking about the difference between last decade and this decade and what I think may be happening in this decade versus–

Rod:  Let’s do it.

JC:    I think last decade, I made a post on LinkedIn about it being a flip for profit type of a decade. So, you know, a lot of people just– If you bought multifamily in the 2010s, and I don’t mean to take anything away from operators. But myself, I think monkeys could have made money almost as well as I did. And that’s no knock against what we’ve built but it was just a great market that saved a lot of people that didn’t buy right because the rising tide just floated all boats.

Rod:  Right.

JC:    We have turned the corner and I was starting to feel it in in 2018 and ’19. And I was very sure that we were going to turn the corner. This was before the pandemic. And I didn’t know that there would be a pandemic, obviously. No one did, but it felt like things were turning into what I’m calling in-operate for profit decade. And what I mean by that is, that now we’re going back to the basics of blocking and tackling and it’s what multifamily owners that I– when I was first getting into the business, I used to interview and talk with a bunch of people that I got to know that owned, you know, hundreds of units through the 1980s and 1990s. And so they were able to speak to me about a completely different time which I believe were kind of going back to some of these similar themes. A completely different time than what we saw in the, you know, the 2000s up until now. You know, back then, these guys had to really scratch for profit. They had to work hard to keep the customer happy. They had to work hard to get butts in the seats. They had to work hard to keep butts in the seats. I believe we’re going back to that type of the deal where, you know, income is not going to rise five or six percent a year like it was doing in terms of rent increases because there’s supply and there’s affordability constraints. And on the expenses side, we’ve got things like property taxes going up. Think about it. In a recession, the revenue is going down for these cities and these counties that are trying to collect taxes. They’re we’re seeing it. They’re going to make up for it by going, “Hey, Mr. Property Owner, we make a lot of our money on property taxes.” Guess what? We need a little bit more because it’s been a tough recession from this pandemic. So, your expenses are going up. Your income’s going down. So, you’ve got so much less margin to operate and make profit. And so, that is going to be the big difference in this decade is, can you operate your property as an owner, operate it better than anybody else? Because that’s going to be the difference between you making money and not making money this decade.

Rod:  Yeah. Absolutely! Couldn’t agree more and you are absolutely a superb operator. So, I’m really thrilled to have you back on the show. Well listen, thank you for taking time and you added a ton of value today, JC. It’s great to see you as always and I’m sure we’ll talk again very very soon my friend.

JC:    Appreciate it Rod!