Clive Davis is a former corporate lawyer turned real estate entrepreneur. He started on Wall Street, worked globally, and led compliance efforts for a Belgian biopharma in the Americas. Shifting gears, Clive now focuses on large-scale multifamily properties with over $135M in assets under his management. He’s also spearheading a 90-acre mixed-use project in Chattahoochee Hills, GA. Managing 2,000 multifamily doors and 317 hotel keys, Clive is a recognized voice in real estate podcasts and panels, advocating for generational wealth through property investment. Holding a Juris Doctorate from Columbia University, he’s a certified apartment manager and licensed in New Jersey, New York, and the Court of International Trade.
Here’s some of the topics we covered:
- How Being a corporate Lawyer Translates To Multifamily
- The Bridge Debt That Is Effecting Operators Deals
- How To Handle Your Very First Multifamily Deal
- One Of The Best Relationships To Have In Real Estate
- The Commercial Debt That Is Coming Due Next Year
- How To Deal With A Fire On Your Property
- Asset Manager Horror Stories & Lessons Learned
- The Dangers Of Living In Comfort
To find out more about partnering or investing in a multifamily deal: Text Partner to 72345 or email Partner@RodKhleif.com
Full Transcript Below
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:19:25
Rod
Welcome to another edition of Lifetime Cash Flow two Real Estate Investing. I’m Rod Cliff and I am thrilled you’re here and I’m very excited about today’s interview. Just a wonderful guy that I met at a I think it was Inman mid-market conference just not that long ago. His name is Clive Davis. And Clive has got this fascinating background.
00:00:19:26 – 00:00:40:17
Rod
I’m not even going to try to give it any any energy. I’m going to let him tell you. But he’s in over 2000 doors in multifamily. He’s also got 300 hotel keys, which is interesting. I’ll be a first on this show. We’ve never talked about hotels and just a lot of accreditation and incredible background. Clive. Welcome to the show, brother.
00:00:40:20 – 00:00:41:17
Clive
Thanks for having me.
00:00:41:19 – 00:01:00:08
Rod
Yeah, let’s let’s have some fun today. I’m really excited about this. So why don’t you. You know, I started reading your bio and I’m like, holy cow, you’re you’re you’re you’re you’re a member of the bar and in more than one place. And you’ve just done all sorts of things all over the world. So I’d love to hear it from you.
00:01:00:10 – 00:01:00:26
Rod
Yeah.
00:01:00:28 – 00:01:22:26
Clive
Yeah. So I’ll give you a little bit of personal background to start. So I’m the youngest of six kids born to Jamaican parents who migrated from Jamaica to England, London specifically, which is where I was born. Oh, wow. So I grew up in the U.K. for my right until I broke into my teens. And then we relocated to the U.S. in pursuit of the American dream.
00:01:22:29 – 00:01:25:01
Rod
How old were you when that happened?
00:01:25:04 – 00:01:33:20
Clive
13. Just getting ready to turn. 14. Moved to Bradley Beach, New Jersey, on the Jersey Shore. So quite a cultural.
00:01:33:22 – 00:01:35:17
Rod
You didn’t get the accent, though. That’s good.
00:01:35:19 – 00:01:48:02
Clive
I had a strong one when I got here and the girls loved it. The boys not so much. And so I made a concerted effort to kind of get rid of that as soon as possible. So it’s and you’re talking.
00:01:48:02 – 00:01:48:29
Rod
About the British accent.
00:01:49:03 – 00:01:54:13
Clive
The British accent. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it’s funny, when I go back, I was.
00:01:54:13 – 00:02:00:07
Rod
Thinking New Jersey when I when I said that, but I wouldn’t even think of British. Of course. Yeah. The girls love those. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:00:07 – 00:02:28:09
Clive
So I when I go back, it’s funny because the English accent comes out right back when I’m around family and friends and what have you. But yeah, so that’s how we made the transition to the U.S. My mom basically, she left me when I was eight to come to the US, which is she had always had her eye on America’s where we can really make things happen.
00:02:28:09 – 00:02:47:25
Clive
And so I was raised by my father for eight until 13 while my mother was in the US working, doing all kinds of jobs, caring for elderly, cleaning houses, what have you. And then she eventually brought the rest of the family over in 1984.
00:02:47:25 – 00:03:03:06
Rod
I’m sorry to keep interrupting that. I just want to ask something. Was she like the the power in in your upbringing? Was she the force of nature in your upbringing? I’m just curious if if if the impact that she had cause she sounds like a pretty dynamic lady.
00:03:03:08 – 00:03:15:05
Clive
She definitely was a dynamic lady and was an ambitious lady despite very humble beginnings. So my mom at best probably had a fourth or fifth grade education.
00:03:15:05 – 00:03:15:27
Rod
While.
00:03:16:00 – 00:03:24:15
Clive
Working from the age of 1415 and just knew something was better out there and just wasn’t she.
00:03:24:15 – 00:03:25:02
Rod
Still with us?
00:03:25:09 – 00:03:28:05
Clive
She’s not. She actually passed in 2017.
00:03:28:06 – 00:03:36:24
Rod
I see. Sorry, I lost mine last year, actually. And the reason I ask is mine is very similar. Very, very similar. That’s yeah. So yeah.
00:03:36:24 – 00:03:48:07
Clive
Yeah. So. So again we followed her in pursuit of the American dream and, and in many respects my story is kind of the fulfillment of what she was pursuing.
00:03:48:07 – 00:03:49:04
Rod
Oh, that’s beautiful.
00:03:49:04 – 00:04:13:23
Clive
And yeah, so got started in New Jersey most of my time in the US. New Jersey is the closest thing to a home state for me, right? Went to school there, undergrad there, went on to go to grad school and law school later on in life. So started out as a lawyer.
00:04:13:26 – 00:04:15:28
Rod
Out of law practice area, just out of curiosity.
00:04:15:28 – 00:04:20:00
Clive
So I was a corporate transactional lawyer, Wall Street firm.
00:04:20:03 – 00:04:22:22
Rod
Like mergers and stuff or more real estate or what was.
00:04:22:22 – 00:04:32:25
Clive
It? So I did a little bit. So in that first year or so, we kind of rotated through different areas. So I did probably six months of M&A. I did six months.
00:04:32:25 – 00:04:34:24
Rod
As mergers and acquisitions, if you don’t know what that.
00:04:34:24 – 00:04:49:15
Clive
Is. Yeah, absolutely. Six months of general banking. I did a six month stint in real estate and then ultimately I signed to Capital Markets. I was a capital markets attorney, securities attorney doing debt and equity offering What.
00:04:49:15 – 00:05:10:29
Rod
A fantastic framework for this business. Holy cow. I mean, that just like laid the groundwork for for what you’re doing now. That’s awesome. You know, just as an aside, I, I actually when I lost everything in 2008 nine, I lost $50 million then in that crash. And when I what I did to pull myself out of that was actually start a litigation support company.
00:05:11:05 – 00:05:23:02
Rod
And I actually built law firms in five states, including New Jersey. And we stopped foreclosures. I helped thousands of families save their homes. But but so I know quite a bit about the business side. The reason I bring that up, please continue. I apologize. Yeah.
00:05:23:02 – 00:05:52:03
Clive
Yeah. So so rotated through those different areas and then ultimately assigned to capital markets. Had no idea what I would go on to do in the connection. But it was really my kind of grounding in my professional kind of start, if you will. And I did that for several years very quickly. I knew that that was not the life that I wanted to play, but it turned so surrounded by successful people.
00:05:52:06 – 00:05:53:11
Rod
But this was in Jersey.
00:05:53:15 – 00:06:10:02
Clive
This was actually in New York. So I’m in New York City now, graduated law school. I’m a junior associate at the bottom of the totem pole, putting in the hours, 70, 80 hours, well-compensated. But my time is not my own.
00:06:10:02 – 00:06:11:05
Rod
But you didn’t have a life.
00:06:11:08 – 00:06:36:28
Clive
Didn’t have a life. I could go in, I could get to Thursday and then get a call that says, You’ve got to be in DC in a room without a view doing due diligence. If I was doing my M&A rotation and that that was the life. But you’re young, you’re in New York City, you kind of know what comes with the territory and you’ve got to put in your time in order to kind of move on to something else.
00:06:36:28 – 00:06:38:08
Clive
And so I put in my time.
00:06:38:08 – 00:06:40:17
Rod
The ascension to partner, right?
00:06:40:20 – 00:07:11:17
Clive
Yeah. So but I knew very early that was not my goal. I mean, I looked around and I saw again, very successful people who’d be in at 7 a.m. first thing they’d be, you know, out at seven or 8 p.m. and then they would just rinse and repeat and do that over. But, but you know, I saw folks who were on marriage number two marries number three didn’t necessarily have the life that I thought, you know, if you’re wealthy and you’ve got things going on, you have a freedom.
00:07:11:20 – 00:07:23:07
Clive
Right. And I just didn’t see that in in the partners that I was surrounded by. And so I knew, okay, this is a good kind of learning environment, but it’s not something that I.
00:07:23:07 – 00:07:26:26
Rod
Want to be the catalyst that got you to to switch or to change.
00:07:26:29 – 00:07:43:08
Clive
So the first switch was, okay, I’ve got to take more control over my time. And so that first transition was going from Wall Street law firm to in-house counsel with a with a couple of Pfizer. Yeah. Oh, you I joined I joined Pfizer.
00:07:43:08 – 00:07:47:17
Rod
And that’s the dark side brothers, as far as I’m concerned. But okay, well.
00:07:47:19 – 00:07:48:18
Clive
I got mixed.
00:07:48:20 – 00:07:51:16
Rod
We won’t go down that political rabbit hole, but yeah, okay.
00:07:51:19 – 00:08:15:24
Clive
Well, we can certainly thank them for some of their recent contribution. Okay. But but in any event, I joined Pfizer, which was a step back in terms of compensation, but a step forward in terms of the control, the greater control that I had over my life. So it was a great experience. You know, I had opportunity to travel.
00:08:15:26 – 00:08:17:27
Rod
And how long were you there?
00:08:18:00 – 00:08:41:23
Clive
I was with Pfizer for four years in New York. And then they actually relocated me to Atlanta to support their Southeast business. So when they when they relocated me, I was supporting the Southeast business, which was comprised of their sales leadership team. And then like 1500 sales reps underneath them. And so if there was a legal or compliance related question that came up, they just said no.
00:08:41:23 – 00:08:44:11
Rod
So all the salespeople are out there knocking on doctors doors and.
00:08:44:15 – 00:08:45:07
Clive
Exactly.
00:08:45:10 – 00:08:46:19
Rod
Yeah, okay, exactly.
00:08:46:19 – 00:08:47:27
Clive
And we’re trying. And you were there.
00:08:47:27 – 00:08:48:09
Rod
How long.
00:08:48:09 – 00:09:03:19
Clive
Away? I was with Pfizer for a total of six years, two years in Atlanta and four and left Pfizer and then became a chief compliance officer for a Belgian pharma company that had its U.S. have its US headquarters in Atlanta.
00:09:03:25 – 00:09:11:21
Rod
Interesting. Interesting. So when was the start of your illustrious real estate career?
00:09:11:24 – 00:09:16:18
Clive
So the start of my real as well. It depends how far back you want to go.
00:09:16:18 – 00:09:33:23
Rod
So, I mean, you told me about the duplex you bought in 99 here in Cape Coral. So by the way, guys, we’re in Sarasota, Florida. He was kind enough to come here to our studio and he’s he’s got his families and got family in Cape Coral. And you got a duplex there, which I’m sure has gone through the moon as far as value and rents and everything else.
00:09:33:23 – 00:09:44:29
Rod
But yeah, you know, as I told you, I used to have 160 houses down there. What it could have, should have. But anyway, so, so, so start with the really the more commercial side.
00:09:44:29 – 00:09:54:19
Clive
Yeah. Yeah. So fast forward so 20 year corporate career at the end of 2016, I decided 20 years was enough and if not now, when you.
00:09:54:19 – 00:09:55:13
Rod
Were married at that.
00:09:55:13 – 00:10:20:09
Clive
Time, married at that time, four kids. My oldest was probably seven, eight months away from heading off to college. So this was going to be the first one leaving the house again. I put in 20 years well compensated, but really was at a point where I said, if not now, when? And the question I was trying to answer was, you’ve always had this interest in real estate.
00:10:20:12 – 00:10:35:14
Clive
You had a flirtation with being an entrepreneur, nor without really knowing what that is. I’m in my at that point, I’m in my mid-forties and I’m like, look, it only gets harder the longer I stay. So if I don’t give this a shot now, when am I going to do it?
00:10:35:14 – 00:10:37:27
Rod
Did you quit cold turkey or did you start doing it on the side?
00:10:37:28 – 00:10:38:21
Clive
Cold turkey.
00:10:38:21 – 00:10:52:21
Rod
Wow. Yeah, I tell people never to do that, but you probably had a cushion at that point. You’ve been in corporate America that long, you had money in the bank and so on and so forth. Probably had some passive investments and so on. Yeah, but okay, yeah. I tell people, don’t do that. They say, should I quit my job and do something?
00:10:52:21 – 00:11:03:00
Rod
No, unless you’ve got your situation because fear paralyzes. And if you don’t have money coming in, then you know you’re paralyzed and then you’re really screwed. So yeah. Interesting. Wow.
00:11:03:01 – 00:11:16:29
Clive
And I wouldn’t necessarily recommend the route that I took because in hindsight, I could have been doing a lot more in the years leading up to that to make the transition. Oh, sure, sure. But I was in a good was.
00:11:16:29 – 00:11:22:26
Rod
There an epiphany or was there like a catalyst or was there or is it just like, I’m done? I’m just curious.
00:11:22:26 – 00:11:46:00
Clive
Yeah, And we talked a little bit about my mom. So really my mom again was in Cape Coral. I was seeing her maybe once or twice a year, to be honest. So I was my parents had retired in 96. I was helping them out. That duplex that we talked about, I the reason I got into that duplex was basically to help them in their retirement.
00:11:46:00 – 00:12:08:12
Clive
So I bought the duplex in Cape Coral, which is where they had retired to. I opened up a checking account. I put both their names on it. I had the rents going into that checking account. That’s beautiful. I didn’t need to touch it. Fortunately, I was in a good position. And so when you know, hot water heater, when the pump on the pool, whatever, I was like, just go get it from your account, you don’t need to ask me.
00:12:08:12 – 00:12:33:02
Clive
And so that’s how we we ran that place for turned out to be I sold that duplex in 2018. Oh I see. So two years into having left corporate and I’m making this transition to commercial, I’m now drawing on that very duplex because I sold it. That netted me some proceeds that enabled me to sustain myself while I was looking to make this transition commercial.
00:12:33:08 – 00:13:00:27
Rod
You know, it’s interesting. We’ve got some parallels. I bought my folks a house in Port Charlotte, if you know where that is. That’s just north of Cape Coral on a canal and bought them a car. And there’s no greater joy than the ability to do something like that for your parents took them on cruises and and you know so those of you listening you know when I when when you do your goals with me, you know, one of the things I have you do is is write down what you want to do for other people, you know, because we’ll do more for others than we’ll ever do for ourselves.
00:13:00:27 – 00:13:10:08
Rod
Right. So, you know, use that as the as the fuel to go kick ass and make things happen. So please. So what was your first commercial real estate deal?
00:13:10:11 – 00:13:35:17
Clive
So fast forward. I’m on this journey immersing myself, educating myself, listening to podcasts, going to conferences first. One thing I tell people is I’m not an overnight success because from the first like letter of intent I submitted in 2019, I didn’t get that one. I was the runner up. Someone wanted to pay 300 K more than we did.
00:13:35:19 – 00:13:43:15
Clive
I said, okay, I’ll get one next month or the month after. So fast forward, I didn’t land my first deal until summer of 21.
00:13:43:19 – 00:13:46:13
Rod
So 19 LOI 21 is your first.
00:13:46:13 – 00:13:47:18
Clive
Deal? Absolutely.
00:13:47:18 – 00:13:56:22
Rod
Wow. Why do you think there was such a long gap, you being conservative? Were you being too conservative? Possibly. And that’s a big deal. That’s a very common dynamic.
00:13:56:28 – 00:14:14:04
Clive
So in hindsight, I think I was being too conservative in my underwriting, right? I was probably put in too much cushion in and therefore not being competitive. And at that time, it’s, you know, very competitive time in the multifamily space.
00:14:14:04 – 00:14:16:18
Rod
And so probably the most competitive we’ve seen.
00:14:16:18 – 00:14:17:21
Clive
Yes.
00:14:17:24 – 00:14:26:16
Rod
And so sorry to interrupt another quick question. Did you had you aligned with someone, had you gotten on a team, had you put a team together? I’m just curious.
00:14:26:18 – 00:14:54:02
Clive
Yeah, I had primarily one prospective partner who we had hit it off and he had done a few deals and he had said, you know, you’re in Atlanta, you know, I’ve got deals in DFW in Florida, but, you know, we don’t have anything in Atlanta, a great market. You know, if you land something there provided I’m not tied up or occupied with something else that’s on the same track, you know, I’ll partner with you if you’ll have me.
00:14:54:04 – 00:15:00:27
Clive
And so we hit it off. And so we were underwriting. I was sharing, you know, you know, different deals with him, opportunities.
00:15:00:27 – 00:15:07:03
Rod
With free, underwrite him, send them to him. Yeah. But you were also able to lean on his experience, right, with your communications with brokers and whatnot?
00:15:07:04 – 00:15:23:24
Clive
Absolutely. Yes. You realize very quickly that it’s a team sport. And so I called brokers the gatekeepers to these deals, these sizable multifamily deals. And so you’ve got to kind of leverage or borrow the credibility of someone else. That’s how.
00:15:23:24 – 00:15:44:15
Rod
Everybody starts. That’s how everybody starts. And, you know, I tell people as well, you know, it’s a team sport, but, you know, when you’re when you’re first starting out, you need to align with some people that have done it, which is why my Warrior program is so frickin successful. If you haven’t heard me, I’m sure you have. I mean, there are upwards of 170 to 180000 units that they own now, and most done between warriors.
00:15:44:15 – 00:16:00:02
Rod
And I’ve only been teaching five years, so I’m super proud of that. But that’s how it’s done. You align with somebody that’s done it, you use the we word, you know, and we own 500 doors, we own 1000 doors, and that’s how you take down your first one or two. And obviously you can do it yourself now. But and by the way, the other thing and I’m sorry, it’s.
00:16:00:04 – 00:16:00:12
Clive
Still a.
00:16:00:12 – 00:16:17:17
Rod
Team. No, it’s obviously a team. Yeah. You you put a team together. You’re right. And if you can stay on the same team, that’s fantastic. You know, the thing I would say is date before you get married. See how well you work together. Check the work ethic, See you know how well aligned you are. So if the integrity is where you want it to be of the same corp, maybe same core values.
00:16:17:19 – 00:16:32:16
Rod
But the other thing I want to mention is, as you talked about, you know, 2019 to 2021 for that first deal, and I see it with my students all the time. You know, it’s that first deal takes the longest, it’s the hardest, it’s the most stressful. And then they get one. Next thing I know, they have three. Like, what just happened.
00:16:32:18 – 00:16:36:21
Rod
Was that a dynamic for you because you’re in 2000 now, so you’ve certainly done a lot.
00:16:36:22 – 00:16:55:09
Clive
It absolutely was. So after knocking on the door for two years, I got that first deal, what it summer of 21. We ended up closing that three months later. The the week that we closed that deal, I got a call from Cushman Wakefield saying, Congratulations, you’ve been awarded this 200 unit, 40 million a.
00:16:55:09 – 00:16:56:12
Rod
Second one, a second one.
00:16:56:12 – 00:16:58:23
Clive
4.5 miles away from the first one.
00:16:58:23 – 00:16:59:16
Rod
Oh, beautiful.
00:16:59:16 – 00:17:00:10
Clive
So again.
00:17:00:11 – 00:17:01:22
Rod
How much how how big was the first one?
00:17:01:22 – 00:17:07:26
Clive
First deal, 244 units. Just about 30 million. And we raised eight and a quarter million.
00:17:08:00 – 00:17:11:22
Rod
So you and this this new partner that you’d found raising.
00:17:11:26 – 00:17:12:13
Clive
Two others.
00:17:12:13 – 00:17:19:22
Rod
And plus two others, you brought in some coach to help you raise the money. Fantastic. Wow. 249 Your first deal. Boom.
00:17:19:25 – 00:17:20:01
Clive
Yeah.
00:17:20:02 – 00:17:23:00
Rod
Love it. Love it. And then you got awarded a second one almost immediately.
00:17:23:00 – 00:17:27:11
Clive
The second one that we ended up closing three literally three months after that.
00:17:27:13 – 00:17:39:14
Rod
And now did this did this partner already have a stable of investors that he was able to lean on? Was he the the the major push for the initial investors or were you guys totally beat in the bushes?
00:17:39:14 – 00:17:46:17
Clive
So between the four of us, we ended up all of us had a responsibility of reaching out to our respective networks.
00:17:46:17 – 00:17:52:10
Rod
Well, you already had a big network network as well from your 20 years in corporate. I’m sure you knew people with money.
00:17:52:10 – 00:18:03:13
Clive
Yes, but untested and so. Oh, yeah. So you really don’t know when people say, yeah, I can raise X and they’ve never done it before, you’ve got to discount that.
00:18:03:14 – 00:18:21:28
Rod
Oh yeah, I can’t tell you. We had a couple of people raising money for my latest deal in Nashville. Latest. It’s been eight months, but. But yeah, people said, Oh yeah, we’ll bring in a million. We’re at 200,000. 2 million. We’re at 400,000. Yeah. And like, oh, good God. And then we then we got to scramble to get, you know, get everything together.
00:18:21:28 – 00:18:39:12
Rod
But by the way, guys, those. Are you listening? You cannot just raise money on a deal. You actually have to be involved. Do the due diligence, be on the asset management calls. You cannot just be a money raiser unless you’ve got a soon. We’re going to talk about that. Actually, I’m doing a class on that this afternoon. But but anyway, please continue.
00:18:39:12 – 00:18:40:03
Rod
I apologize.
00:18:40:03 – 00:18:58:15
Clive
Yeah. Yeah. So so we get deal number two. I’m literally right on the heels of the first one. So that’s all of that work over two years is now starting to pay off. And I’m saying, okay, I’m getting traction now and you know, once you get that first one, you leverage that and you get the second one and now you’re credible in that market.
00:18:58:15 – 00:19:08:06
Clive
And I was focused at that time and still very much today, primarily on the Atlanta metro. And so you start building up a reputation and.
00:19:08:09 – 00:19:11:13
Rod
Brokers start taking you seriously, so on and so forth.
00:19:11:13 – 00:19:34:04
Clive
Right? Yes. So so what’s Sarah, funny story with you. So I got awarded that first deal. It was a Friday. I happened to be in in Dallas at the time. I flew home to Atlanta on Monday. I got a call from a broker, I won’t mention the firm, and he said, Hey, Clive, congratulations. I heard you landed X, Y, Z deal.
00:19:34:06 – 00:19:43:18
Clive
And I’m like, Well, how does he know? Because it’s not with that brokerage firm, right? I have been talking to their lending arm. Oh, that’s some other options.
00:19:43:18 – 00:19:44:12
Rod
Everybody talks to.
00:19:44:13 – 00:19:45:29
Clive
Every it’s a it’s a very.
00:19:45:29 – 00:20:01:14
Rod
Very small world. Guys, listen, I want you to hear what he just said. Very small world, which is why you don’t screw people around, because everybody talks to everybody. Don’t be the person that trades or renegotiate every deal or or it says they’re going to do something and doesn’t do it. So yeah.
00:20:01:20 – 00:20:21:11
Clive
So so he says, you know, again, congratulations, I’ve got a couple of deals. We don’t have an offer in memo yet, but we have ab0va broker opinion of value. If you’re interested, I’ll, you know, I’ll send over the confidentiality agreement. Sign it. Take a look. Let me know what you think. This is a broker that I’ve been in.
00:20:21:17 – 00:20:42:00
Clive
You know, knocking on his door for two years. I had never been sent anything that was off market. And I’m sure you were sending it to me. A 23 of his other closest friends. Right. But nonetheless, it wasn’t a public deal. Yet he shares it with me. And this is literally on the weekend. I just got toward my first deal that he’s heard about.
00:20:42:00 – 00:20:42:24
Rod
Wow.
00:20:42:26 – 00:20:56:04
Clive
So right there, before I’ve even closed the first deal, all he knows is I’ve been awarded a deal. And now the conversation with him is a little bit different than it’s been in the year or two prior when I was nobody.
00:20:56:04 – 00:21:19:01
Rod
Yeah, as soon as you close or I’m surprised that you didn’t wait to you close. But typically you close and then then the floodgates open. But I will say this. You tell me if I’m wrong. In the last six months, I’ve gotten more broker communication than I’ve gotten the last five years. Yeah, Same for you. Absolutely. I mean, this market is is, you know, the last thing I last time I checked is 75% year over year decline in sales.
00:21:19:03 – 00:21:25:22
Rod
You know, so. So here’s a so please continue if you’ve got more on your on your history here.
00:21:25:22 – 00:21:47:04
Clive
Yeah so so now I’m in the game you know I started out before I even landed that first deal, I was investing passively pretty heavily and I’d move my retirement funds from Pfizer and UCB where I was moved all of that out of the stock market and started investing in commercial real estate. And that’s where the hotels that that 3000 plus oh.
00:21:47:05 – 00:21:48:00
Rod
No kidding only.
00:21:48:06 – 00:21:50:13
Clive
Came in passive investment.
00:21:50:15 – 00:21:53:06
Rod
How’s that turned out with all the craziness in that environment.
00:21:53:12 – 00:22:01:10
Clive
Well portfolio of three Fairfield Inn and Suites all of them within 25 minutes of me and I love that that I could drive by.
00:22:01:10 – 00:22:02:03
Rod
And look at them.
00:22:02:05 – 00:22:08:15
Clive
You know stay there if I wanted to in town get getaway. They got crushed during COFCO.
00:22:08:15 – 00:22:09:09
Rod
But real.
00:22:09:12 – 00:22:23:27
Clive
They went down to skeletal cruise 40%. They survived and they’re coming back strong now. Right. But it will probably be next year before they return to pre-COVID kind of revenue levels. Sure. So, you know, they kind.
00:22:23:27 – 00:22:25:24
Rod
Of the returns stopped. Yeah, sure.
00:22:25:24 – 00:22:26:18
Clive
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:26:20 – 00:22:27:10
Rod
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:27:10 – 00:22:33:16
Clive
We stopped. And, you know, there was capital calls in there in the mail. No kidding. Oh, yeah, sure.
00:22:33:17 – 00:22:57:27
Rod
Fine. That’s no fun. You know, I will tell you something. What if you don’t know what a capital call is, guys, it’s when. Let’s say you invest passively in a deal and the operator knows they need help, and there’s going to. There’s going to be a punch line here in just a second. But so they’ll reach out to all their passive investor and say, hey, we need a million, 2 million, 3 million, $4 million, and we need help to do that.
00:22:57:27 – 00:23:17:27
Rod
So that we can refinance or get through this hurdle. And of course, if you don’t pony up, you could lose everything. And so it’s it’s kind of a carrot and a stick. But I will add something here. I’ve got I know a really big attorney in Dallas that has a very large SCC practice and owns owns thousands and thousands of units himself.
00:23:18:02 – 00:23:39:07
Rod
And he said right now just about half of his business is capital calls, forbearances and foreclosures. So that’s I mean that train is is headed off the track here. I mean I don’t know how you feel about that. I will tell you the reason I was at I am in was I was being proactive for my warriors to see if any of them needed rescue capital, which of course, is like the 11th hour.
00:23:39:07 – 00:23:59:06
Rod
You lose everything except your reputation stuff. But I found five people there that that had, you know, said they were interested in rescue capital just in case any of my students needed it. Luckily, I’ve only got one that’s struggling right now that did a capital call. But, you know, I mean, you saw that you saw what happened in Houston with that Wall Street Journal article, competitor of mine student.
00:23:59:09 – 00:24:01:27
Rod
And yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
00:24:01:28 – 00:24:04:17
Clive
Well yeah and and I know the individual.
00:24:04:22 – 00:24:05:06
Rod
Oh, you do.
00:24:05:12 – 00:24:12:05
Clive
That mix my thoughts about it and that particular situation is someone got it over their skis.
00:24:12:05 – 00:24:12:12
Rod
Yeah.
00:24:12:14 – 00:24:18:16
Clive
Yeah. They grew too fast without paying attention to the business, to the.
00:24:18:16 – 00:24:19:14
Rod
Operations, to the.
00:24:19:21 – 00:24:28:06
Clive
Operation of the asset management. And so when you’re looking at success, you got to look at it holistically and I think.
00:24:28:08 – 00:24:37:02
Rod
I heard there was a nefarious component to it as well. The guy did like capital calls and ran off with some money to India. So I don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s kind of the scuttlebutt that I got about, Yeah.
00:24:37:02 – 00:24:39:04
Clive
At the end of the day, from my standpoint.
00:24:39:04 – 00:24:42:22
Rod
It’s a black guy. That’s the problem for the industry. That’s the problem, absolutely.
00:24:42:22 – 00:24:50:01
Clive
And, you know, I feel for the folks who are in that deal and not only that deal, but other deals. And so.
00:24:50:04 – 00:24:50:20
Rod
Yeah.
00:24:50:23 – 00:24:52:17
Clive
You know, it’s not going to be the last.
00:24:52:17 – 00:25:00:22
Rod
No, I don’t know if you saw the recent stuff on I was on RealPage I think it was on about these, you know Nydia these big ones that are that.
00:25:00:26 – 00:25:01:12
Clive
I saw.
00:25:01:12 – 00:25:18:29
Rod
That Yeah, yeah. I think there’s a, I think there’s going to be a reckoning here. Now, I look at it as opportunity. I, you know, I got crushed in 2009 by the wave. I’m surfing this one. Okay, so I have access to cash. I’m in a lot of cash and I don’t you know, it’s going to it’s going to suck, for lack of a better word, for these people that happen to have it happen.
00:25:18:29 – 00:25:32:16
Rod
But I had it happen to me and I recovered. Yeah. So, you know, they can recover as well. But, you know, I’m I’m hoping that there’ll be some exponential opportunity to buy some assets, you know, some, you know, some actually set up an opportunity fund myself. I don’t know if you’re doing anything like that, but.
00:25:32:19 – 00:25:43:18
Clive
I haven’t gone that far. But I’m definitely keeping my eyes and ears open for opportunities. I think it’s kind of a natural and perhaps healthy shakeout after I probably a 12.
00:25:43:18 – 00:25:45:22
Rod
Year after irrational exuberance. Yes.
00:25:45:22 – 00:25:48:13
Clive
Yeah, 12 year plus. Great run.
00:25:48:13 – 00:25:48:24
Rod
Right.
00:25:49:01 – 00:25:57:18
Clive
And I think, you know, us taking a breather is probably a good thing. Oh, it is. I don’t think it’s going to be anywhere near what it was in 2008.
00:25:57:18 – 00:26:21:03
Rod
Eight and nine. No, but but it not necessarily residential, but in commercial. I mean, I’ve got a Forbes issue here that shows office, you know, office occupancy. Yeah. My God. It’s like in the low seven. Yeah, excuse me, in the low seventies and like, the six major cities. Yeah, those assets don’t break even unless they’re in the late 80, you know, 85, 88%.
00:26:21:05 – 00:26:36:11
Rod
And so, you know, and then, of course, there’s 1.6 trillion in commercial debt coming due by the end of next year. And if you either have to sell, which is way down or you have to refinance, which is very challenging, as you know, are you in any bridge debt now or are you you good yet?
00:26:36:12 – 00:26:40:24
Clive
No. A couple of our deals, we did do the bridge.
00:26:40:27 – 00:26:41:17
Rod
How are they how.
00:26:41:19 – 00:26:55:21
Clive
We’ve got time on them. But we are looking at all of the options that are at our disposal include and refi. Right. And so, you know, it’s a matter of looking at the numbers and making sense of that for each particular asset.
00:26:55:21 – 00:27:14:03
Rod
Yeah, the problem the problem is, you know, not just the fact that, you know, yeah, you can refinance, but it’s going to be bridge because you’re not going to, you know, Fannie and Freddie, I’m looking at a deal at 50% loan to value right now. The only way it makes sense and so you’ve got you’re going to likely have to fund to get to a debt service coverage ratio that you can live with.
00:27:14:03 – 00:27:33:29
Rod
And then you’ve got that rate cap. I mean, you know, I read an article that $100 million rate cap in 2020 for three years, 3% was $23,000. That same rate cap right now for one year for you couldn’t get three years is 2.3 million. Now this was actually four four months ago or so. So yeah, you know so there are challenges.
00:27:33:29 – 00:27:46:08
Rod
I’ve got some bridge debt, too. I mean, there are challenges and we’ve got to just work through them. You know, I’m hoping that the Fed starts to believe that inflation has been tempered, whether it has or not, and starts to the just the rates back down.
00:27:46:08 – 00:27:50:14
Clive
So, yeah, I mean, they pause, but we’re looking at another potential.
00:27:50:14 – 00:28:05:29
Rod
Oh, no, it’s coming. There’s another one. There’s another one coming for sure. I mean, they pretty much all but indicated that they were going to continue to raise for a while. I just hope, you know, next year that that tempers off. But I will tell you, you know, I’ve been in the business a long time. I started in 1978, and at that time the rates were 18%.
00:28:05:29 – 00:28:10:16
Rod
Yeah. And I remember doing back flips when they were what they are today. Okay, seven.
00:28:10:19 – 00:28:12:03
Clive
That’s good context. Yeah.
00:28:12:05 – 00:28:31:15
Rod
So. So give it give it some context, but it’s no fun. I will tell you, those deals are no fun right now. And you know that that that that bridge debt and for those of you that are brand new you’ve never heard what that is. That’s basically the hard money lender equivalent from the single family space. It’s adjustable rate It’s it’s fairly onerous.
00:28:31:15 – 00:28:43:15
Rod
You need to buy rate caps although there were some that didn’t require them. I don’t know if you remember that there were some you didn’t even have to get a rate cap. Can you imagine what’s happening with those good guys there? I’m sure they’re done. Yeah, but. But but anyway.
00:28:43:15 – 00:28:59:21
Clive
So from a risk management standpoint, and if you’re a passive investor looking at those opportunities, one, two, three years ago, you know, that’s got to be one of the questions you’re asking. Well, because it wasn’t everyone knew interest rates were going to go up. We didn’t know that they were going to go up at the rate.
00:28:59:21 – 00:29:00:11
Rod
Rate and.
00:29:00:12 – 00:29:01:05
Clive
Speed that they.
00:29:01:05 – 00:29:07:21
Rod
Did. Now, we all proforma some adjustments, yes, but not to the extent that they went, which is unheard of. Yeah.
00:29:07:21 – 00:29:15:23
Clive
Yeah, but but flying without any kind of safety that. Yeah. Which is what you were doing if you didn’t put in place the card.
00:29:15:23 – 00:29:38:01
Rod
A lot of people didn’t have one But even even let’s forget rate cap a lot of these guys, you know I look I’d look at these pro forma as these offering memorandums and and I’m like where’s the operating reserves? Oh we’re going to get that from cash flow. I’m like, you know, you know, I mean, we do a minimum six months of expenses that operating reserves and even we’re stiffer than that now.
00:29:38:02 – 00:29:47:28
Rod
Yeah, but, you know, just in case the you know, just in case what’s happening now, it happens. But so so you’ve got $2,000. Are they primarily in Atlanta or the all Atlanta or.
00:29:48:03 – 00:29:50:09
Clive
All across the country? So.
00:29:50:12 – 00:29:51:04
Rod
Okay.
00:29:51:06 – 00:29:57:14
Clive
Couple of deals in Atlanta. We just closed three weeks ago a deal in northwest Arkansas, which is the biggest deal I’ve been involved.
00:29:57:19 – 00:30:14:02
Rod
Those are I love northwest Arkansas. That was about one in. Oh, God, where was it? A little town? Like a like a touristy town, right on the edge of the park. Oh, God. I wish I could remember. I remember the name of the complex. I remember the name of the town was beautiful little town like a tourist attraction.
00:30:14:05 – 00:30:21:24
Rod
And my team didn’t want to do it. I’m kicking myself for listening to them at this point because. Because it’s. It’s just exploded. Some of my warriors ended up buying it, but it’s.
00:30:21:24 – 00:30:45:04
Clive
A phenomenal market. It was the Wall Street Journal article about probably six weeks plus ago talking about what’s going on in northwest Arkansas and kind of it’s just a phenomenal market. While I was there, I think it was described as think of us northwest Arkansas as Austin, Texas, but 15 years ago. So if you know Austin, Texas today.
00:30:45:04 – 00:30:46:01
Rod
What town it what town.
00:30:46:01 – 00:30:51:02
Clive
Is. So this is specifically in Rogers, Arkansas, which is next door to Bentonville, which is.
00:30:51:02 – 00:30:51:11
Rod
Oh, yeah.
00:30:51:11 – 00:30:52:12
Clive
Which is home of.
00:30:52:16 – 00:30:53:15
Rod
Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart.
00:30:53:15 – 00:30:59:29
Clive
Fortune one. Right. And not only do you have Wal-Mart, there you have J.B. Hunt Trucking.
00:31:00:00 – 00:31:03:18
Rod
Well, you have all the people that want to woo Wal Mart there as well. Absolutely. Right.
00:31:03:18 – 00:31:25:29
Clive
Absolutely. Basically, if you want to do business with Wal Mart, if you want to have stuff on their shelves, they highly encourage you to have a presence, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that’s what is drive in what you’re seeing there. So median household income within a mile of this property, 180,000. Okay. So this is Arkansas. And so when I see half that right in Atlanta, I celebrate.
00:31:26:01 – 00:31:27:09
Clive
Wow. 90,000.
00:31:27:09 – 00:31:27:28
Rod
Right?
00:31:28:00 – 00:31:28:22
Clive
So that’s.
00:31:28:22 – 00:31:35:25
Rod
Crazy. It’s a very you I want to see some cool go by the Bentonville Airport and look at all the private jets. It’s insane. How many private jets are there.
00:31:35:25 – 00:31:51:15
Clive
Yes. And they’ve got a phenomenal museum, world class museum, which is funded by the Walton family, the Crystal Bridges Museum. Wow. If you so any anyone has an opportunity to go check out that museum. It will rival anything you’ve seen around the world.
00:31:51:15 – 00:31:53:18
Rod
Cool. And that’s just an aviation museum or what is this?
00:31:53:18 – 00:31:56:24
Clive
No, it’s. It’s art, you know.
00:31:56:26 – 00:31:57:24
Rod
Just a general museum.
00:31:57:24 – 00:31:59:20
Clive
General, can you see it? Yeah.
00:31:59:22 – 00:32:20:19
Rod
Well, so talk about, you know, everybody thinks this success is just this easy path with with with no speed bumps. Talk about a failure in this journey of yours and maybe the lesson that you got from it. And we all have numerous I call them seminars, numerous seminars, but talk about a doozy and if something comes to mind.
00:32:20:22 – 00:32:44:08
Clive
Yeah. So I don’t know if this qualifies as a failure, but it’s a recent experience that I’m still working through. Okay. Once you get into this business, you know, it’s a matter of time before you are going to have a fire on one of your properties. So not only did I in late March, we had a fire that ended up taking out 12 units.
00:32:44:10 – 00:32:45:06
Clive
I got a call.
00:32:45:08 – 00:32:46:02
Rod
We’re in Atlanta.
00:32:46:10 – 00:33:08:03
Clive
In Atlanta, I was actually down in Savannah, Georgia, with my youngest son who was there for gymnastics. Me. I got a call around 930 from our property management company. So so on a Friday, 9:30 p.m., you got a call from your property management company. You know, it’s probably not good news. And your first question is, is everyone okay?
00:33:08:03 – 00:33:08:18
Clive
Right.
00:33:08:18 – 00:33:09:06
Rod
Of course.
00:33:09:08 – 00:33:22:20
Clive
So yes. Okay. God bless. No one harmed. Lo and behold, fire. We 12 units down and you go into kind of okay, how do we kind of.
00:33:22:23 – 00:33:23:23
Rod
How long have you been in this.
00:33:23:23 – 00:33:26:19
Clive
Situation? So this is that first one that we bought.
00:33:26:19 – 00:33:28:12
Rod
Also back in time, long time.
00:33:28:12 – 00:33:30:10
Clive
November 21.
00:33:30:10 – 00:33:31:18
Rod
Okay. So you’ve done it a long time.
00:33:31:18 – 00:33:44:17
Clive
Yeah, we’ve owned it for a little bit and three weeks later I’m going into a meeting. It’s 930 in the morning. I get a call from the property management company. Clive, you’re not going to believe this. Another one. Another fire.
00:33:44:19 – 00:33:45:25
Rod
Oh, my God.
00:33:45:28 – 00:34:02:29
Clive
Takes out six units different building on the property. Totally unrelated. This time it’s a H vac subcontractor who’s on property sort or in something puts the pipe back in behind the drywall doesn’t that’s take all of the building.
00:34:03:02 – 00:34:03:24
Rod
To make your life.
00:34:04:00 – 00:34:04:12
Clive
Hell.
00:34:04:12 – 00:34:08:08
Rod
With the insurance company because they’re going to. Have you gotten a public adjuster yet.
00:34:08:08 – 00:34:12:27
Clive
Oh yeah yeah yeah. Well down that path. Public adjuster. I can’t imagine how you navigate.
00:34:12:27 – 00:34:35:10
Rod
By the way that way, those of you listening, if you ever have a large insurance claim, you’ve got to use a public adjuster. I’ve got a fantastic. So just to commiserate with you, how long has it been? Three months. Four months? Three months. We had a 20 unit building completely destroyed by fire. My Nashville asset. And the only there was an injury a woman had to jump out of a third floor balcony, hurt her knees a little bit, but she’s okay, thank God.
00:34:35:10 – 00:34:51:01
Rod
But so I feel yeah, I mean, I’m in the midst of it right now. We’re just negotiating the tear down on that place right now. But we had just bought it, so we had a bunch of vacancies because we were renovating, which doesn’t look great when you’re trying to do the rent negotiations with the insurance company. So we’re going to be fighting it out.
00:34:51:01 – 00:34:56:14
Rod
But wow, two and you’re going to you’re going to struggle getting insurance for that baby. I’m going to tell you.
00:34:56:14 – 00:35:14:25
Clive
So where we’re you know, so these are the joys of asset management that don’t necessarily get advertised when someone says who’s going to be the primary asset manager? So I’m the of the partners. I’m the only one in Atlanta. Sure. So I’ve got the boots on the ground, I’ve got the connections, and I’m the natural person to take the lead on the course.
00:35:14:27 – 00:35:24:29
Clive
So I’ve been working through those. I’ve been you know, we’ve had to retain legal counsel in connection with the dialog. No issue as to responsibility for.
00:35:25:01 – 00:35:39:24
Rod
Causation, you know, and liability. Yeah, but but I learned from the public adjuster that when you have a vendor like that, then it’s going to be a fight between your company, your insurance company and theirs. And and it just delays things. That’s the problem and delays things.
00:35:39:25 – 00:35:46:07
Clive
Long, long timelines way longer than it needs to be. But. Right. That is the process. And you can’t.
00:35:46:07 – 00:36:06:22
Rod
I’m sorry you’re going through that. Well, we’re literally in the soup of it right now. But but always get a public adjuster is the point, guys. Always get a public adjuster if you have a large claim. I in fact down when Hurricane Charley hit Port Charlotte, I had 360 damaged houses. Okay. And and it was it was the biggest logistical nightmare I’ve ever had.
00:36:06:22 – 00:36:28:16
Rod
I had 18 crews just evaluating the properties and then redoing them. It was and I had to sue the insurance company at that time and oh, that’s no fun. Yeah, you get through it. You know, you get through it, and usually you come out a little ahead believing, right? Even with the public adjuster that a percent of the claim you come out ahead but whatever it takes a year off your life is the.
00:36:28:16 – 00:36:31:14
Clive
Process but the public adjuster well worth the.
00:36:31:14 – 00:36:32:04
Rod
Investment. Oh, yeah.
00:36:32:11 – 00:36:40:04
Clive
You’d be crazy to try and Right. Go 1 to 1 with the insurance company without their expertise. Except that’s what they do. That is 100% of what they know.
00:36:40:04 – 00:37:00:03
Rod
I did it here. You saw Mike. He. He couldn’t come a couple of days ago because they were reroofing this this building we’re in at my compound. And I settled for just under a million bucks here on roof and paint and all the interior damage and everything else from a hurricane. This Ian. Ian? Yeah. Yeah, I like Ian because I needed a roof, you know?
00:37:00:03 – 00:37:08:17
Rod
And so, you know, it worked out great for me, but, but of course that’s why insurance here is insane. What are you seeing with insurance in Atlanta? On that note.
00:37:08:21 – 00:37:12:24
Clive
Atlanta is not as bad as the stories I’ve been hearing coming out of.
00:37:12:24 – 00:37:14:03
Rod
Florida and through the.
00:37:14:04 – 00:37:15:07
Clive
Games four times.
00:37:15:07 – 00:37:39:25
Rod
Oh, four times or even more, We were looking at asset Louisiana beautiful best income county parish, they call it in the whole state. And the seller was paying 500 a year each per unit. They quoted a 3000. I’m like, are you frickin kidding me? You know, and that’s killing a lot. That’s another catalyst. Potential catalyst, Yeah. And that plus taxes.
00:37:39:27 – 00:37:46:23
Rod
And you combine that with a bridge, that’s a problem. Do you have assets in Texas?
00:37:46:26 – 00:37:49:06
Clive
I’ve passively invested there. I don’t have any that.
00:37:49:06 – 00:38:12:18
Rod
I because you know, the insurance there has been and taxes have been insane as well. We’ve got quite a few assets in Dallas and then in Houston and San Antonio and but well, so listen, you know, my listeners, I have listeners that are seasoned and I have listeners that are no, they need to go do something. Yeah. And I hope if you’re one of those that you get your butt to my boot camp in September in Orlando.
00:38:12:21 – 00:38:27:22
Rod
But that said, what advice would you give somebody that’s been thinking about this business hasn’t taken action yet. No, they need to do something to get the time. Freedom that you wanted. Yeah. What would you say to them?
00:38:27:24 – 00:38:51:05
Clive
So the first thing I’d say is if you wait for the perfect opportunity to start, he won’t start. And so you got to look for that one. You got to know your why. If you’re not clear on your why, then you’re just going to kind of procrastinate. You’re going to be kind of paralyzed. You’re not really going to be in the mode of taking action.
00:38:51:05 – 00:39:08:25
Clive
So you got to kind of know why am I even considering this path? And once you know that, I would just encourage you to take action. Surround yourself with people who have experienced success at the very thing that you’re trying to pursue.
00:39:08:26 – 00:39:26:02
Rod
Couldn’t agree more. Couldn’t agree more. And the why thing I mean, this is why the first hour and a half of my boot camp is goal setting on steroids. And part of that goal setting process is figuring out what your why is because the why is the driver the why is going to help you create that burning desire like Napoleon Hill talks about in his book, Thinking Grow Rich.
00:39:26:05 – 00:39:42:08
Rod
So we actually take action with what you learn. You know, there’s a reason my students own upwards of 100 780,000 doors is because they take action, because they know their way and they push through it because you’ve got to push through fear. You got to push through limiting beliefs. Maybe you’re comfortable. You are comfortable in your corporate job, for sure.
00:39:42:08 – 00:39:59:13
Rod
Yeah, a comfort zones, a nice warm place, and nothing freaking grows there, right? Yeah. So, you know, let me ask you this on your team, you said, of course, your boots on the ground in Atlanta, but are you the what hat do you wear more globally on the team? Are you the underwriter or are you the one that finds the deals?
00:39:59:13 – 00:40:02:26
Rod
Are you more more driven towards the asset management? What what piece?
00:40:03:02 – 00:40:23:10
Clive
It varies from deal to deal. So like the deal that we just closed in northwest Arkansas, one of my partners has ties to there. He’s been pursuing deals there since 2019, finally got this great asset. My role was much more limited. I’m not the boots on the ground. I’m not going to be flying into to northwest Arkansas. Okay?
00:40:23:13 – 00:40:26:25
Clive
Every partner played their role in terms of capital money.
00:40:26:25 – 00:40:28:05
Rod
Sure.
00:40:28:07 – 00:40:55:15
Clive
Obviously, I’ve got my investors in the deal. So there’s a there’s an investor relations piece that I’m going to be handling for for anyone that I brought into the deal contract that would my Atlanta deals where I found the deal. I taught the deal, I underwrote the deal. I had the discussions with the brokers. I, I developed the relationship with the property management company who we ultimately ended up using for those properties.
00:40:55:17 – 00:41:11:01
Clive
And then Post-Closing because I’m the only boots on the ground there, I naturally take the lead and the weekly calls, the interactions with the property management company and so the others kind of fall back a little bit in terms of the role they play. We got others.
00:41:11:04 – 00:41:17:05
Rod
These different partners in the Arkansas deal, new partner that that’s in that one or is the same partner group every time I’m.
00:41:17:05 – 00:41:39:08
Clive
Blessed to say because this stuff doesn’t always happen that the partners on my two Atlanta deals are the very same core partners on the deal that we closed most recently. And I’ve also invested passively in one or more of their deals. So there’s a repeat connection there and.
00:41:39:10 – 00:41:39:26
Rod
That’s great.
00:41:39:26 – 00:41:41:14
Clive
If it’s not broke. Don’t, don’t.
00:41:41:14 – 00:42:01:21
Rod
No, I couldn’t agree more. That’s a match made in heaven. So one thing I want to tell you guys is, you know, when you’re raising money and I know you do this because we talked about it, Clive is is yes, you can just do the investor Relations, but you have to be more actively involved than just that. You know, like the asset management calls.
00:42:01:21 – 00:42:21:21
Rod
And I tell people, you know, record the asset management calls, make sure you’re actively involved offering suggestions, you know, things you’re not agreeing with, and so on and so forth, because there has to be an active involvement that kind of correlates to the amount of money you’ve raised and put into this thing in the amount of the split that you end up getting.
00:42:21:21 – 00:42:36:17
Rod
And I know I’m getting kind of in the weeds here, but and this is why you need to get your butt to my bootcamp, because we go into this deep. I’m going to have Merrill, my attorney there, spend an hour on this, and I’m doing it again here in just an hour. When I do my syndication presentation on my masterclass course.
00:42:36:19 – 00:42:54:24
Rod
But there are some nuances. I mean, it’s not something you need to worry about, but you need to be very careful that you’re not perceived as just raising equity. So I want to throw that out there. So do you think there’s a type of person, Clyde, that is better suited to this business than another? Just curious.
00:42:54:26 – 00:43:07:18
Clive
I think you got to be a self-starter. This is this is not a business where you you need to be constantly motivated and someone’s got to kind of get you out of bed to go to get going. You got to be itself.
00:43:07:18 – 00:43:15:11
Rod
Got it. You got to discipline you. And it starts with motivation, but you got it motivational. You get you started. Discipline keeps you going, right?
00:43:15:17 – 00:43:19:20
Clive
And you got to be resilient. So. So we talked about the recent challenges.
00:43:19:27 – 00:43:43:08
Rod
Oh, I you you could we could probably talk about that literally for 8 hours. The challenges we’ve had in our career. And yeah, so so let me ask you this. I kind of alluded to this. You know, I like to hear about catalysts or epiphanies or aha moments in. This business, if I ask you that question, does anything come to mind where you’re like, okay, now I freakin get it about any anything?
00:43:43:10 – 00:43:44:29
Rod
I know I didn’t prepare you for these, but.
00:43:44:29 – 00:44:05:14
Clive
Yeah, so I would, I would say partner. And so I constantly, constantly I’m talking to people who are earlier in their journey about getting into this space. And one of the most important things that you can do is just like in your romantic life, be very selective about the partner that you choose to get with because.
00:44:05:15 – 00:44:07:24
Rod
Have you had any partnership issues?
00:44:07:26 – 00:44:10:02
Clive
I’ve not. Again, I’ve done so it’s.
00:44:10:02 – 00:44:24:05
Rod
Interest back to back to you. So important to you because I have and and and there’s an investor, a woman an investor in Atlanta that I’m sure you know, the name initials M M, And if you don’t, I’ll talk about it offline.
00:44:24:05 – 00:44:24:29
Clive
Yeah, we’ll talk about it.
00:44:24:29 – 00:44:43:10
Rod
Yeah, but but but you know, she was a member of my mastermind four or 5000 doors and and there was another big member of my mastermind, four or 5000 doors. And they both split up from very large partnerships and, you know, and so, so it’s interesting that you’re talking about that you’ve never had and I have had problems with partners as well.
00:44:43:10 – 00:45:04:02
Rod
It’s always a communication breakdown. So you didn’t really do your due diligence ahead of time. And by the way, guys in in my link tree Rods links is a list of questions you should ask before you get into partnership. Okay. It’s a very valuable tool. It’s at Rods Links. It’s one of the free books there because a partnership like a marriage is really easy to get into and very hard to get out of.
00:45:04:02 – 00:45:10:00
Rod
Yes. Okay. And so and that’s what you were alluding to. And I’m glad you’ve never had a problem. You know.
00:45:10:02 – 00:45:23:10
Clive
And one thing I say that I know from my personal life is nothing puts more pressure on a relationship than financial matters, of course. So when you get into these deals, they are all about financial matters.
00:45:23:10 – 00:45:24:07
Rod
Right?
00:45:24:10 – 00:45:43:03
Clive
And so, you know, whereas in your romantic life, there are other things going on in the finance pieces. One component, right? The finance pieces, the biggest component of these deals. And so the blessing of it taken me two years to get into the game is that I had an opportunity to really get so my primary partner yeah.
00:45:43:07 – 00:45:43:15
Rod
Good.
00:45:43:16 – 00:45:55:23
Clive
To to kind of calibrate his risk tolerance as compared to mine to really test kind of, you know, it’s one thing the first date everyone can put forward the best, you know, faith.
00:45:55:23 – 00:46:03:02
Rod
And just like when you’re dating on your first date, it’s the most amazing perceived to be the most amazing person ever. But then you dig in.
00:46:03:02 – 00:46:06:21
Clive
Yeah, a few dates later, you know, they fall on their back.
00:46:06:21 – 00:46:37:27
Rod
Starting to crack. You know, I’ll tell you, you know, and let me say this, guys, as well. Your brain is so frickin powerful that it picks up on micro nuances that you’re not consciously aware of. And a great example is a book called Blink. I think Pressman is the author, and one of the pieces in that book is like the most famous art experts in the world can look at a painting and they know it’s a fake, but they don’t know why it’s a fake.
00:46:38:00 – 00:46:58:12
Rod
So if you meet somebody and you just something doesn’t feel right, trust it. That’s your brain picking up on something you’re not consciously aware of. But that’s how powerful your brain is Now. Women are better. Just the men. It’s called intuition, right? But, you know, men can hone it. But again, if the gut feels off, trust it. I can’t.
00:46:58:16 – 00:47:11:29
Rod
And this is an ask me how I know I one of my students gave me a shirt that says hashtag ask me how I know because my book comes from like, don’t do that. Ask me how I know. And so now we give them away. But but this is one of those things and you’ve just got to trust your gut.
00:47:11:29 – 00:47:29:05
Rod
And then you ask all these questions in that book, you know, make sure you use that before you get in a partnership. I’m so glad you brought that up. So what is your what is the fave? What is your favorite part of what you do in commercial real estate? And then I want to ask you, what’s the most challenging for you?
00:47:29:07 – 00:47:51:23
Clive
It might be the same thing. So so I like the people component and there’s so many ways that you’re impacting people. Obviously, if you’re providing housing to someone who needs housing, that’s the obvious one. And so if you can walk into a situation and ultimately live it better than when you found it.
00:47:51:25 – 00:47:52:16
Rod
It feels good.
00:47:52:16 – 00:48:20:05
Clive
That that feels good. Yeah. And so that so that’s big. The people, you know, everyone is part of the team. So the property manager, I love seeing people grow. So if I can contribute to that in any way, I feel like, you know, that’s, that’s not in the job description. But if I’m able to contribute to someone being a better onsite property manager, then when I first connected with them, that’s a win for me.
00:48:20:05 – 00:48:24:12
Clive
And so I’m big on how can I contribute to the growth of others?
00:48:24:14 – 00:48:46:21
Rod
Yeah, and help help them become more. It’s a beautiful thing. I mean, that’s what I mean. That’s my greatest gift in life. I could show you a wall over in my in my office, in my other building where I have hundreds of thank you cards from students on the wall, literally hundreds. And, you know, this isn’t ego, but when I tell you I get love every single day from people whose lives have been impacted by my work, it’s the greatest gift you could possibly imagine.
00:48:46:21 – 00:49:09:18
Rod
I get gifts. I get cards, and I get DMS and emails and yeah, that’s why I’m addicted to it. That’s why I’m here on a Saturday doing this with you. Yeah, right. And but yeah, great, great answer. So, so I like to ask this of my super successful people that I interview like yourself, if you could go back and tell yourself something, I’m sure you’ve been asked this before.
00:49:09:20 – 00:49:14:11
Rod
Go tell 18 year old Clive something. What, if anything, might you do differently?
00:49:14:18 – 00:49:32:29
Clive
Yeah. For me, it’s just take more risk. But believe in yourself. And I’m looking back now. In hindsight, I realize I didn’t need to put in 20 years in corporate America before I made this pivot. I could have ten years earlier.
00:49:32:29 – 00:49:34:06
Rod
It was a comfortable thing, wasn’t it?
00:49:34:06 – 00:49:58:11
Clive
Yeah. You get to a place again. Well compensated, right? You’re in a comfort zone. You’re the direct deposit is hidden every two weeks. It’s like, if it’s not broke, why fix it? And so you’ve got to you’ve got to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. And most people don’t want to put their finger closer to the flame. They want to, you want to keep it where it’s nice and comfortable.
00:49:58:11 – 00:50:03:10
Clive
And so you’ve kind of got to disrupt the status quo to break out of that complacency.
00:50:03:13 – 00:50:24:09
Rod
Tony Robbins says the quality of your life is in direct proportion to the amount of discomfort you can you can stand. And and, you know, I bought 2000 houses that I rented long term because it was so frickin easy. And that was comfortable for me. And my biggest regret is not, you know, if I had just been in multifamily in 2089, I’d be on the back of a 300 foot yacht right now.
00:50:24:09 – 00:50:44:08
Rod
Yeah. Okay. And you know, you talked about waiting to take risks. You’re very analytical. There’s no question you wouldn’t be. And I love you if you’re analytical and you know who you are and you know how you have to check off every single box before you make a move. This is what we’re talking about here. Jumping sooner. You don’t have to see the whole road.
00:50:44:10 – 00:50:59:04
Rod
You know, you take as Dr. Martin Luther King said, you take that first step in faith and the next step will be revealed. You know, and the analogy that I give on this is you can drive all the way across the United States at night with your head light only see in 60 feet in front of you. And you know, you can make it.
00:50:59:04 – 00:51:07:28
Rod
You may have obstacles, but you know, other people have done it before you. It’s the same way with this multifamily business, but you’re not going to see the whole road when you get started. Would you agree with me?
00:51:08:00 – 00:51:08:17
Clive
Absolutely.
00:51:08:17 – 00:51:28:04
Rod
But you but you got to take action and make it happen and you’ll learn as you go. And that’s very, very hard for analytical people. But I can tell you they’re some of the most successful people in this business because this business is primarily empirical, primarily numbers, right? You get the numbers right. You ask all the right questions and and success is inevitable.
00:51:28:06 – 00:51:51:05
Rod
Now, I will tell you this, though, some of them I probably the most successful partnerships I see are the combination of an analytical person with an outgoing person and and complement they complement each other. Absolutely. And this business needs both because you’re building relationships now. You’re very personable guy. That’s why I wanted you here. You know, you’re a very personable guy and and you’re not an introvert like a lot of analytical people are.
00:51:51:05 – 00:51:55:22
Rod
Maybe you’re introverted at your core probably are. You probably get energy from being alone, right?
00:51:55:25 – 00:51:58:18
Clive
I need time alone. Right?
00:51:58:21 – 00:52:19:12
Rod
Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I need time with people to recharge. So. So I’m an extrovert and I thought I was an introvert, you know, from from childhood experiences and being embarrassed and stuff like that. But but, you know, and again, if you’re an introvert and you’re analytical, come to my freaking bootcamp, number one, because I will you know, I shouldn’t say this because I will make you get up, I meet some people and it’s going to be uncomfortable.
00:52:19:12 – 00:52:36:16
Rod
But I will tell you, the people that come that are introverted. Thank me for it because, you know, 5 seconds of courage is powerful. But yeah, you’re you’ve you’ve worked your way, too, to building those relationships and throughout your career, you know, and all that you have, you’ve been locked in a room for your entire career, Right?
00:52:36:16 – 00:52:50:01
Clive
But what I will say so. So when you’re talking to a recovering corporate lawyer and chief compliance officer, so when you talk about taken risk, right. I was in roles where I was counseling people to take the least possible.
00:52:50:01 – 00:52:51:07
Rod
Risk to and.
00:52:51:07 – 00:53:08:17
Clive
In my personal life. Again, you’re in a comfort zone. Sure. Why disrupt that? Sure. So I had to kind of overcome that. I had to overcome the limiting beliefs that you you know, you need to pursue a safe and tried and trusted road. Don’t venture out there for the unknown.
00:53:08:18 – 00:53:24:29
Rod
My dad worked for Continental Airlines for 36 years, and he used to tell me, go get a real job. You know, when I was first starting out in real estate, you know, I’m going to get a pension, you know, And you know how much my mom got from a pension until she died last year, $596 or I might have been 697, whatever.
00:53:24:29 – 00:53:41:06
Rod
I mean, it was nothing. Okay. And here’s the other thing. My dad worked for Continental Airlines for 36 years. In fact, I don’t even remember the Continental planes. They had the golden tail. You could always tell them when they were flying by, even very high. And he used to make us kids, put our hands over our heart. When one flew by, it was kind of funny.
00:53:41:06 – 00:54:00:11
Rod
A joke. But he loved that company, you know, 36 years and he got laid off. So, you know, don’t tell me about job. You want job security? It’s right here between your freaking ears. It’s going out and doing something for yourself. And I’m going to tell you opportunity is frickin coming. We are going to have Sorry about the expression show.
00:54:00:11 – 00:54:14:25
Rod
I’m just telling you it’s coming. And so pick your vehicle. If it’s going to be multifamily, get to my boot camp. You can I think there’s going to be opportunity to buy businesses, you know, those 80 million baby boomers retiring and they have businesses. I think there’s going to be great deals. They’re single family, other asset classes. Stay away from office.
00:54:15:03 – 00:54:22:24
Rod
I probably stay stay away from retail, too, right now. But but are you in any on that note, are you in any other asset classes besides the hotel in the mall time?
00:54:22:26 – 00:54:25:16
Clive
Well, I’m also doing some development now, so I’ll.
00:54:25:18 – 00:54:26:06
Rod
Talk about that.
00:54:26:06 – 00:54:31:16
Clive
Yeah. So I and a partner, we’re developing a 90 acre parcel, so.
00:54:31:18 – 00:54:32:07
Rod
That’s big.
00:54:32:14 – 00:54:48:14
Clive
And it’s going to be a culinary centric community, really innovative. So it will be mixed use, probably 77 single family homes, about 40 apartments above about 40,000 square feet of commercial retail. Wow. Yeah. So wow.
00:54:48:14 – 00:54:52:26
Rod
So you kind of doing like a little themed environment here with the culinary piece.
00:54:52:26 – 00:54:53:10
Clive
Exactly.
00:54:53:11 – 00:55:00:29
Rod
How are you promoting them? This is fascinating because I’ve never heard this before. How are you promoting that culinary component? Is it going to be in the retail?
00:55:01:02 – 00:55:30:08
Clive
So it’s going to be adjacent to it. We’re really positioning it as these are parts of the amenity offerings for community. So we actually are adjacent to seven B Georgia, which is a wellness community, been around since about 2005. This is a community of about 3500 people, but has the propensity to grow to 87,000. Wow. So it’s a rural set in about 25 minutes from Hartsfield Jackson, world’s busiest.
00:55:30:08 – 00:55:31:06
Rod
Airport in the world.
00:55:31:06 – 00:55:35:08
Clive
Yeah, And yeah, so we’re developing a community there. So that’s one.
00:55:35:08 – 00:56:09:12
Rod
Development. That’s so. So but you said culinary. So so you know, because it’s funny, I was just I don’t know why this showed up in my feed. I, I was seeing the Villages, which is the retirement community here in Florida and, and they’re incredible model is they would build the infrastructure first the town with the restaurants and the shops and the Starbucks and the and the place where the people have shows every night and they built it the the what is the golf cart highways to get for people to get around and then they’d build the residential around it and people clamored so so because because of that environment.
00:56:09:12 – 00:56:19:05
Rod
So that’s kind of what triggered it in my head with this culinary component. Yeah. Are you going to have I mean, so you’re leaning on that adjacent business for this, For this piece.
00:56:19:08 – 00:56:32:17
Clive
Yeah. The wellness community. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we are complement complementing that wellness community so they build themselves as wellness. So hiking, so trails, there’s like 30 miles of hiking trails and we have hiking trails on.
00:56:32:17 – 00:56:35:03
Rod
Yeah. 98 on our land you’ve got a lot of land.
00:56:35:05 – 00:56:57:18
Clive
So you can go from one to the other. And so they build themselves as wellness. We’re built in ourselves as culinary because we have these distinct components that we will have. We’ll have a chef incubator where we will support up and come in executive chefs. We’ll also kind of support them in the startup of their own business as they kind of branch off into the very broader community.
00:56:57:18 – 00:57:18:01
Clive
So my partner is the original founder of Atlanta Food and Wine Festival. Oh, so she she has that background. This is her baby. I came on board just under a year ago and it’s a phenomenal vision and I just wanted to be a part of it. I knew I was going to venture into development. Yeah, it’s kind of a natural to do.
00:57:18:01 – 00:57:30:14
Clive
I’m sure you’ve sure you’ve been doing multifamily acquisitions? Sure. And so I’m learning a ton. I’m drinking from the fire hose, but but it’s it’s stuff enjoy And, you know, it gets me juiced up.
00:57:30:14 – 00:57:35:19
Rod
Very cool. Very, very cool. Wow. Wow. That’s I was going to ask you, what’s next? That’s it.
00:57:35:22 – 00:57:45:16
Clive
I’m not in office. Yeah. So I you know, I took my beat in with the hotels during COVID. Oh, yeah. They’re bouncing back and they have a bright future.
00:57:45:20 – 00:57:50:04
Rod
Are you in in self-storage or mobile home parks or. I’m not industrial, nothing else.
00:57:50:04 – 00:57:50:29
Clive
And I think.
00:57:50:29 – 00:58:20:01
Rod
Those are all great asset classes, frankly. I really do. They’re a resilient Well, I have really fricking enjoyed this interview with you. My friend and I probably talked to more than I should have. I just we had so many things that that triggered memories and things for me and and guys, if you want to get a hold of him he’s at Park Royal capital dot com and and I’ve I’ve really enjoyed our our a little bit of time here together and I hope we can stay in contact because you’re just a great guy I can see that.
00:58:20:04 – 00:58:27:20
Clive
Appreciate you having me this has been great This is only the second time I’ve done this in person and I like the connection that you get.
00:58:27:20 – 00:58:31:19
Rod
So yeah, agreed. And agreed was my pleasure. You be well.
